09-09-2005 17:21									#1
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ive heard tons about the xml and python,and it looks

but what i havnt seen anything about is c++,and how much of this will be hardcoded. the magazine on editing abilities that was scanned in didnt say a thing about it IIRC

im hoping the ability to edit with that will be nearly as unrestricted as the rest of the code.

	09-09-2005 17:46									#2
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Edit hardcoded elemments? impossible. It's a commercial product, they have to sell it

	09-09-2005 18:00									#3
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I think from what we know now we can deduct it was just a boon at the very beginning to attract all kinds of open-souring and open-source-keen people..

	09-09-2005 18:07									#4
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binTravkin, what do you know what I don't?

	09-09-2005 19:42									#5
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This is pretty much what we know:

quote: Finally and most spectacularly, Firaxis will release a good portion of the game's source code as part of the game/AI SDK -- this is not very uncommon for some other types of games such as FPS games, but is almost unprecedented for strategy games. This SDK contains all the source code related to the rules of the game and all the AI code (but not other things like network code or the graphics engine). Using this package, modders will be able to do everything from writing their own game types to pretty much building their own game loosely based on Civilization; they can change literally anything they want. This is not for the faint-of-heart though, one will have to be a capable programmer to do really meaningful things with the SDK. Prior programming experience is pretty much a necessity. Note that the SDK will not ship with the game itself, but rather will be released seperately at a later date.

http://civilization4.net/3/115/153/

Sounds pretty good to me...

	09-09-2005 20:11									#6
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yes i saw that. ''literally anything they want'' is a meaningless phrase. ussually when that is said in my experiance,its when the limits are very high and the speaker cannot summarize what *can* be done

	09-09-2005 20:18									#7
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Well, that's the nature of source code. With a full-fledged programming language like C++ you *can* do literally anything you want. It should be entirely possible to convert Civ4 into a SMAC or CtP clone, or to make it an RPG game. Even turning it into RTS might be possible, but that depends a bit on how flexible the Gamebryo engine (and the link from the SDK to the engine) is. The only thing that will likely limit you are things like the graphics engine, network protocols, etc. But at least within the framework of a TBS game, I'd be surprised if there will be huge limitations on what we can do.

	09-09-2005 20:25									#8
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So we are back to time & resources as our biggest limitations

	09-09-2005 21:27									#9
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The Gamebryo engine is versatile. It has been used in Morrowind, is going to be used for Oblivion, one of the graphically best games out there, and also is used for Pirates and Civ4.

The engine being open-sourced is out of the question. However, if the code of the game itself is open, there are indeed very few limits, the main probably being time and skill. It should probably be able to make anything within the TBS realm (a CtP, SMAC or MoO conversion), and also, with appropriate skill, probably games of other genres. Sid Meier's Football Manager or Sid Meier's Half-Doom.

	09-09-2005 21:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Solver and also, with appropriate skill, probably games of other genres. Sid Meier's Football Manager or Sid Meier's Half-Doom.

As I said, if that will work depends on how well the SDK links to the game engine. If all the turn-related stuff is in outside the SDK, we're 'stuck' on making TBS games (or other TB games such as RPGs, or a Football Manager indeed). If the link is very open and gives access to the full capabilities of Gamebryo, there's truely no limit to what can be done, as Gamebryo is a versatile engine indeed.

We'll just have to wait and see... (But of course it's not like anyone's actually going to make a Civ4-based RTS game, there are probably easier ways to do that.)

	09-09-2005 23:18									#11
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A good portion of the source code and all the AI code looks like only Python. I see no reason why they'd release C++. It's a real pain of a language, since you need to compile and link with libraries and headers, some of which may be third party and not possible to distribute, whereas python is interpreted and doesn't need such a mess.
The less C++ code and the more Python the better imo.

	09-09-2005 23:27									#12
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quote: Sid Meier's Football Manager or Sid Meier's Half-Doom.

why not simply use existing open source projects if you want that? there are plenty of FPS bases to pick from

quote: The less C++ code and the more Python the better imo.

imo the more power and less restrictions the better

	10-09-2005 00:05									#13
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare A good portion of the source code and all the AI code looks like only Python.

That's certainly not the impression that I'm getting. It sounds like Python will mostly cover event-based scripting, not the core game rules and certainly not the AI (or only to a limited extent). The reason for not using Python more is quite obvious: C++ give much better performance.

quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 why not simply use existing open source projects if you want that? there are plenty of FPS bases to pick from

As I said in my previous post, noone's seriously going to do that, but it indicates how powerful the SDK will be and how much you can do with it (or at least if the suggestions by Firaxians are lived up to), which was your reason for starting this thread, wasn't it?

	10-09-2005 00:12									#14
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well i know how strong the potental is or i wouldnt have started this thread. what i would like to know if how much artifical restrictions there will be

	10-09-2005 00:24									#15
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If Firaxis live up to their promises, then time & skills will probably be the biggest limitation.

Modding-wise, what I'm most looking forward is AI. I know that it's quite probably among the hardest modding work, creating new AI routines and making them work well together with the already existing modules, but I will love any such improvement.

	10-09-2005 03:10									#16
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quote: The reason for not using Python more is quite obvious: C++ give much better performance.

I tend to disagree. I agree that C, and thus C++ can give better performance for things like hardware access and rendering (3D display), but for ai which is mostly number crunching and logics, I doubt so. Particularly if you compile Python, which I believe is possible. My experience with perofrmance problems is mostly with quadratics and bad structure of the code. The language matters only for a few percents, maybe a factor 2. But a factor 2 is very little in comparison with what you get when fine-tuning, and Python and other high level languages give you more time to fine tune as these languages are easier to work with and debug than C++. OK, I'm biased, working everyday with it, I strongly dislike C++.

	10-09-2005 03:24									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Solver If Firaxis live up to their promises, then time & skills will probably be the biggest limitation. Modding-wise, what I'm most looking forward is AI. I know that it's quite probably among the hardest modding work, creating new AI routines and making them work well together with the already existing modules, but I will love any such improvement.

I fully expect Apolyton to be able to create a much better AI than Firaxis, not because of leet skillz or anything but because we can make the AI specific to the ruleset, whereas the AI Firaxis puts in has to be able to handle mods to a degree. It could even be combined with an Apolyton University for cIV, which wouldn't have to make things easier for the AI but just balance the game better.

	10-09-2005 03:41									#18
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quote: I fully expect Apolyton to be able to create a much better AI than Firaxis, not because of leet skillz or anything but because we can make the AI specific to the ruleset, whereas the AI Firaxis puts in has to be able to handle mods to a degree. It could even be combined with an Apolyton University for cIV, which wouldn't have to make things easier for the AI but just balance the game better.

Uhh... a well-designed AI will handle simple mods without many changes. If you tweak around, say, unit and tech costs, a well designed AI will understand and adapt, as it already takes costs into consideration.

The real reason why Apolyton has great capabilities is that Apolyton has unlimited time and more people. Firaxis has Soren. He is a great programmer, but he's alone (or almost alone), and he has other responsibilities plus, of course, the problem of the Civ4 release schedule. Apolyton does have able programmers (and I'll be extremely surprised if more don't join when Civ4 is released), and doesn't have time limits.

I wouldn't expect any significant improvements anytime soon, as it's a very complex matter, but I think that in the long-term, good results will be produced.

	10-09-2005 03:52									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Solver If Firaxis live up to their promises, then time & skills will probably be the biggest limitation. Modding-wise, what I'm most looking forward is AI. I know that it's quite probably among the hardest modding work, creating new AI routines and making them work well together with the already existing modules, but I will love any such improvement.

I'm looking forward to doing a diplomacy mod: as soon as I can get my hands on the game.

	10-09-2005 04:03									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Solver quote: I fully expect Apolyton to be able to create a much better AI than Firaxis, not because of leet skillz or anything but because we can make the AI specific to the ruleset, whereas the AI Firaxis puts in has to be able to handle mods to a degree. It could even be combined with an Apolyton University for cIV, which wouldn't have to make things easier for the AI but just balance the game better. Uhh... a well-designed AI will handle simple mods without many changes. If you tweak around, say, unit and tech costs, a well designed AI will understand and adapt, as it already takes costs into consideration.

The point is that a well-designed AI (in the sense that Firaxis means it) will be capable of playing, even if badly, a large modification of the game as long as someone doesn't make weird workarounds important. The AI designed by Apolyton, though, could act completely nonsensically when used with any mod, but be hardcoded to understand the specific strategies involved with a predetermined ruleset.

	10-09-2005 11:31									#21
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quote: The AI designed by Apolyton, though, could act completely nonsensically when used with any mod, but be hardcoded to understand the specific strategies involved with a predetermined ruleset.

And that's the power of such an AI - it's made specifically for one ruleset.
If you change the rules, you adapt the AI.

We're not able to make a good AI who'd work as well under all circumstances, so we can make one who will work well at least under a particular ruleset.
Even more so if the ruleset is something popular and often used by players.

	10-09-2005 20:21									#22
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Exactly. We can make an AI that knows specifically how to use the carrier unit, not generically how to use units with the "aircraft carrier" flag.

	10-09-2005 21:27									#23
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I don't think the point is to fine-tune the ai to the set of stats the game will have, but to let it fight the strategies that the players will devise against the default ai, let it know the exploits and favourite tactics and counter them.

	10-09-2005 21:50									#24
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The specific strategies people develop are dependent on the precise ruleset used.

	10-09-2005 23:00									#25
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An AI that knows how to use the Carrier instead of units with Carrier Flag is *weaker*. A good AI will use any unit with the Carrier Flag well, while your limited AI would only use one such unit well.

	10-09-2005 23:15									#26
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Uh, no. A good AI doesn't care about the Carrier Flag, because the only unit with it is the Aircraft Carrier. A good AI doesn't care about any of the flags, because it knows the specific strategy to use for each unit.

	10-09-2005 23:48									#27
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What does each unit mean? Each unit is some numbers and flags. Your AI will only use the Carriers. A AI that takes the flag into account will start basing Fighters on Battleships if that's enabled. And that is stronger, because a good AI will know how to use planes from ships anyway, and thus will base its planes anywhere.

Look at humans. Humans use adaptive tactics. Humans will not only use a Carrier, but other ships, too, if they had the flag. The AI should play like that.

	11-09-2005 01:14									#28
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quote: What does each unit mean? Each unit is some numbers and flags. Your AI will only use the Carriers. A AI that takes the flag into account will start basing Fighters on Battleships if that's enabled.

But it isn't enabled. That's the point. This is a better AI for the game. Not the type of AI Firaxis wants to write, because it can't handle rules changes. But neither can a Chess AI.

	11-09-2005 01:57									#29
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You're missing my point. An AI that can handle changes would and should still treat a Carrier exactly the same way as an AI that wouldn't handle changes and would only work under the specific ruleset. The only difference is what would happen if the flag was enabled for Battleships, too.

	11-09-2005 03:40									#30
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quote: You're missing my point. An AI that can handle changes would and should still treat a Carrier exactly the same way as an AI that wouldn't handle changes and would only work under the specific ruleset.

Not necessarily.

Also, there are tons of units for which there are specific strategies in C3. It would be even more true with all these promotions. An AI designed around a specific ruleset will always beat an AI designed around a more general ruleset.