10-09-2005 06:04									#1
	Babylon or Lost Boys ??? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The reason for this thread, poll and discussion is to get our cards out on the table, and allow a "advisory" vote to take place.

The issue is where we take our forces after the Bards have been eradicated, Babylon or the Lost Boys.

Please read through, make your points, caste your vote and get involved.

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summary:

AM - Allies, have been for a long time, and still going strong

DR - Allies, have been for a short time. Lots of good possibilities here. Although we still keep catching Aqua out on small lies.

Babs - Enemies, have been at war for some time now.

Lost Boys - Enemies, have been at war for some time now.

Bards - Enemies, have been at war for some time now. They may not be in the game for much longer

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Babylon:

They declared war on us, some time ago.

So far they have attacked us twice. Each time with a warrior, and each time they lost.

They have conducted an agressive campaign against us in the public threads.

We gain war happiness from this situation.

AM are at war with them as well. AM have taken a two cities from Babylon. AM also have stopped Babs from having Iron.

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Lost Boys:

They declared war on us, some time ago.

So far I do not believe they have actually attacked us.

We gain war happiness from this situation.

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My Thoughts:

At this time there are still 5 other nations in the game, and we still could at any time face a 5 nation alliance against us. I believe we need to cull these odds.

Yes the Bards are being dealt with at the moment.

That still leaves 4 nations.

Personally I have no issues with AM, they have been solid allies so far, yet as ever we remain vigilant.

Still 3 nations

I remove DR for now, they have signed an alliance with us. Yet I do not full trust them.

So this leaves the two Babylon and Lost Boys.

Of them I would like us to focus on Babylon. Maybe not eradicate them, but at least make them into a very minor issue, reducing them to two towns.

With Babylon reduced to a small issue, the power of a 3 to 4 nation alliance against us is well reduced.

Babylon have their GA at the moment. If they are allowed iron, and growth, then we face a solid enemy later. An enemy that has worked very hard to turn many nations against us.

I expect a road to be completed between Babylon and Lost Boys very soon. This will allow iron to be transferred, as well as Lost Boy troops to join in the conflict.

Lost Boys are still a counter weight against DR at this time. Yet in that I believe that DR and LB have a very strong alliance, and have had for a very long time. They share a long common border, and Aqua has openly admitted that they have a LB worker in DR lands at the moment building roads.

There is a possibility that we will be fighting both nations in a combined conflict.

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	10-09-2005 06:10									#2
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Babylon need to be smacked down hard. I remember Operation Smackdown. Bring that out and make it so.

Last edited by Rubychaser on 10-09-2005 at 06:17

	10-09-2005 08:15									#3
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I think that we should strike the Lost Boys.

They are more pacifistic than Babylon (easier target) and they are economically more powerful. Also AM have Babylon tied up just nicely and to be honest, Babylon have the AM tied up nicely as well.

Lost Boys have secretly been plotting with Aqua and this must stop. We will make Aqua attack them. He will attack them or be late to take his share of the plunder.

	10-09-2005 09:18									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube I think that we should strike the Lost Boys. They are more pacifistic than Babylon (easier target) and they are economically more powerful. Also AM have Babylon tied up just nicely and to be honest, Babylon have the AM tied up nicely as well. Lost Boys have secretly been plotting with Aqua and this must stop. We will make Aqua attack them. He will attack them or be late to take his share of the plunder.

I have to agree from what I have been following on


Lost Boyz need to be gone boyz!!

	10-09-2005 09:26									#5
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Well...I think the Lost Boys actually. We cannot allow them to remain within two peaceful boarders, grow a military, and keep expanding. They could quickly become a major threat in their own right should we have significant losses in the bard and bab theatres. Ljube has it right in that AM and Babs have each other tied down now. This situation benefits us in a strong way. The key here, I believe, is to get DR on board in an alliance against LB. I think this will be difficult, but doable.

As far as LB-Bab iron trade. we would need to cut that road for sure.

	10-09-2005 09:34									#6
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The best thing will be presenting Aqua with a choice:

Attack Lost Boys allied with the Horde, or face the Horde as traitor.

	10-09-2005 09:54									#7
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Good value, getting some good points here

	10-09-2005 11:46									#8
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Yes I would have to agree lost boys should be the target. Babylon is in a weakened state with AM pretty well in control of that war so I think we should let AM handle them. While LB on the other hand is just sitting there and gaining power. In my opinion it would be wiser to trim a strong nation to reduce their threat then to take out a nation that is not a real threat any more.

	10-09-2005 14:09									#9
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Why only one?

As you all said, AM is doing a good job fighting the babs at the moment. If we lend them a bit of help, the babs could be pushed "over the line" much quicker. If we want that of course, keeping AM busy may be a good thing. At any rate, we should monitor their war carefully and rush to AMs aid should they need us.

LB it is then, we can of course decelare a "fake war" to babylon, march troops in their direction and then change direction towards LB when we get close

	10-09-2005 14:44									#10
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Why only one? As you all said, AM is doing a good job fighting the babs at the moment. If we lend them a bit of help, the babs could be pushed "over the line" much quicker. If we want that of course, keeping AM busy may be a good thing. At any rate, we should monitor their war carefully and rush to AMs aid should they need us. LB it is then, we can of course decelare a "fake war" to babylon, march troops in their direction and then change direction towards LB when we get close

hehehe a good way to cut any roads they have

	10-09-2005 15:00									#11
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I tend to agree with all statements here on certain levels.

It would be a grand gesture to assist AM against Babs, they are a true ally and we must consider that action.

LB really need a good kicking its true, especially from the scores point of view.

However am I the only one who feels DR should be our main focus, I honestly feel were better off fighting as close to home as we can, I worry that we commit to a war far away then face betrayal at the hands of DR who would be able to cut our supply lines with ease.

I will naturally abstain from this vote, I will also support the majority decision, but if we operate down south we will have to protect all roads and DR borders lest we become victims of over ambition !!!!

	10-09-2005 15:29									#12
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As good as Babylon and AM standing off against each other maybe, destroying babylon would be very satisfying.

	10-09-2005 15:31									#13
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A shame you have abstained Chris. Really looking for opinions and votes on the matter of either AM or Babs

This is a discussion looking at options for the near future.

	10-09-2005 15:50									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot A shame you have abstained Chris. Really looking for opinions and votes on the matter of either AM or Babs This is a discussion looking at options for the near future.

I have'nt really abstained have I , Ive said I will support the majority decision.

I also said what my opinion was, ie: we should fight our nearest neighbours rather than our farthest neighbours !

I could not vote for my personal preference as it were not an option on the poll

	10-09-2005 15:54									#15
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no it was not an option as they our allie at this time

so the discussion is of our enemies

	10-09-2005 15:57									#16
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As Sage of the Horde do we really need to vote banana on this?

I understand Banana-man has an option in nearly all polls in our universe but lets stick to one of the two since really that is what our Great Khan wants

Gracias

	10-09-2005 16:02									#17
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hehehe, I so so used to adding it to other polls opps

	10-09-2005 16:02									#18
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HMMMMM

OK LB it is then

	10-09-2005 17:43									#19
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Chris, here is the case for LB before DR:

1.) They are closer to Home than DR.

2.) Fighting DR would have LB in our rear or easily capable of reaching it. Our main armies would be further from the Hordeland than LBs armies.

3.)Left unchecked, LB's military could easily grow to outsize ours.

The case for LB instead of Babs:

1.) See number 3 above

2.) LB and DR cannot both be left not warring while both AM and The Horde war. This alliance cannot be allowed to grow unchecked. If we allow this to happen while AM and us loose units in finishing off the Babs, then I believe that puts us in great peril.

3.)There is a possibility that we can use diplomacy to get DR involved in a war with LB. If we can keep DR fighting and loosing units, then that benefits us greatly in the long run. I believe there is no chance of them fighting if we move on the babs alone.

	10-09-2005 17:51									#20
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I agree with Chrisius Maximus, that DR should be the main target here. They are run by a capable player, they had heavy losses against the Bards, are in the corner of the map and close to us. We cannot have too long logistical lines in a war and we will burn if DR turns un us with our troops dislocated. DR is the only nation that is virtually at home, and we will waste lotsa turns relocating troops.

	10-09-2005 17:53									#21
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ahhh this is coming together indeed

and E_T will survive

	10-09-2005 17:59									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot and E_T will survive

Almost enough reason to through strategy to the wind and hit babs with everything!...

	10-09-2005 18:02									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Omnistar I agree with Chrisius Maximus, that DR should be the main target here. They are run by a capable player, they had heavy losses against the Bards, are in the corner of the map and close to us. We cannot have too long logistical lines in a war and we will burn if DR turns un us with our troops dislocated. DR is the only nation that is virtually at home, and we will waste lotsa turns relocating troops.

I totally agree that DR is the main target. It, however, would be unwise to move against them before LB for the reasons above. I believe that they are allied with LB and we could be facing a combined force if we hit DR first. I believe that there is a chance to get DR to fight with us if we hit LB first. Even if they do not, then our forces remain between the Hordeland and DR if we strike LB first. To me, the whole point in an LB war would be to position our forces for an eventual strike into DR.

	10-09-2005 18:05									#24
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Thank you for your opinions Omni

yet the discussion is in regards to Babs or Lost Boys

at this time DR are our allie, and attacking them is an entirely different discussion

so I would really like to hear your thoughts on the matter at hand.

	10-09-2005 20:23									#25
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Given the choice, LB or LN,we are better off finishing Babs, since they are closest to defeat, and it lets us remove one player completely, and then I would actually argue a war with AM or DR, not LB, as we are know into the area of logistics.

The reason to take out bards, was to get a more quiet region.

	10-09-2005 20:30									#26
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For Babylon, just helping AM win the Babylon war, we should only send the following, and save horsemen veterans for keshik upgrades, and MDI veterans for the next harder war.

We should send a limited expeditionary force to fish for leaders and build some experience.

Werewindle Brigade
All Elite Horsemen and Elite Ancient Cavalry
All Regular Swords
Bataar, Elite Warrior
Regular Warrior
Two Archers
a couple of Pikemen

	10-09-2005 21:11									#27
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We must not overlook the fact that LB is a large Civ that has experienced almost no unit loss. They are capable of producing a formidable military if left alone. When you combine this with the fact that they may be even now plotting with DR against us. My belief is that it is critical to reduce this threat as soon as possible.

	10-09-2005 21:16									#28
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Well, finish off Babs, possibly go after DR or LB after Babs.

	10-09-2005 21:22									#29
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Why would we want to divert troops to finish babs? AM and babylon being locked in conflict benefits us. The babs are no danger as long as they are in that war. If AM requests help, then we should go...but We must deal with the rising menace of LB. And the sooner, the better.

	14-09-2005 10:28									#30
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Greetings from the land of the rising sun!

I agree with Plato and Ljube that taking the Lost Boys down now, while we have an alliance with DR and our southern allies are keeping Babs in check.

We shouldn't split forces to take on two very distant objectives, it weakens us just as we are taking on a potentially dangerous adversary. Also, if DR and LB have a good solid alliance, I wouldnt put it past DR to initially agree with a co-ordinated attack on LB only to turn traitor and join LB in a likely massacre of our forces. Then we would be up the proverbial creek without a veteran horseman to save the day.

The diplomacy must be very carefully conducted to tease out the chance that DR would lay a trap for us ... the faintest suggetions things aren't solid we should probably just attack Babs with AM and then use our allies as a meatshield *ahem* I mean coalition partner in a war against LB or DR.

Put simply, if we are convinced the alliance with DR is honestly reliable then we should go against LB now before they turn into a significant threat, otherwise we will need our AM allies to take on both LB and DR.

Last edited by dialectic2003 on 15-09-2005 at 11:03