19-09-2005 21:07									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Putin is the democratically elected president of Russia who has support (according to polls) of absolute majority of Russian population. The rest is bullsh!t. If you or your insane asslickers like Kasparov don't like him, it's not our problem, but yours.

Putin does have considerable support in Russia - we cant know what his support would be like if he hadnt beaten the TV networks into submission. He of course got into the position to do so by being Boris Yeltsin's hand picked successor.

Its also impossible to know if a different hand picked succesor would have managed the same degree of control over the media, and the same degree of political success.

	19-09-2005 21:17									#62
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Frankly, it may well have been the case that there was fraud in the first election, but there it seems just as likely to me that the second election was fraudulent as well, just the other direction.

On the one hand, it was exciting to see all those people ion the streets, simply because they believed they were defrauded. That would never happen here, even though we know we were defrauded in 2000 and possibly were again in 2004.

On the other hand, in situations like this, the media can be exceedingly manipulative, respresenting a small segment of society as indicitive of the majority (something they would never do for an antiwar or antiglobalization demo in the West). Kiev was where all the media was, but what about in Karkov?

I don't know how things were in Ukraine, but I do know that when the U.S. and the West gets involved directly in someone else's elections, the result rarely is a democratic choice. The election in East Timor was the sole exception, and that was administered by the UN.

	19-09-2005 21:27									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Frankly, it may well have been the case that there was fraud in the first election, but there it seems just as likely to me that the second election was fraudulent as well, just the other direction. On the one hand, it was exciting to see all those people ion the streets, simply because they believed they were defrauded. That would never happen here, even though we know we were defrauded in 2000 and possibly were again in 2004. On the other hand, in situations like this, the media can be exceedingly manipulative, respresenting a small segment of society as indicitive of the majority (something they would never do for an antiwar or antiglobalization demo in the West). Kiev was where all the media was, but what about in Karkov? I don't know how things were in Ukraine, but I do know that when the U.S. and the West gets involved directly in someone else's elections, the result rarely is a democratic choice. The election in East Timor was the sole exception, and that was administered by the UN.

1. from everything i followed, the second election was less fraudulent and more representative than the first. That is why I supported the Kiev demos and not the Kharkov ones, not cause the Kiev ones were more charismatic.

2. I followed the 2000 election in some detail. It was a tie. They might as well have flipped a coin. I wasnt happy at the time with how it worked out, but it was not at all comparable to what happened in Ukraine.

3. You seem to have a self fulfilling prophecy going there. The wests involvement is antidemocratic, therefore when you see a situation where its prodemocratic, you accept the words of those who oppose it.

The EU has supported democratic elections throughout eastern europe, IIUC, and in other parts of the world as well. I know of no evidence tying them to the subversion of democracy. But if you prefer to ignore the EU, and make this about teh eevil Bush, and eevil US conservatives, you may.

But please be aware thats the usual diversion of discussions, to Florida in 2000, or to the history of US
imperialism, rather than to actual conditions in Ukraine, is why some of us ignore these threads.

	19-09-2005 21:38									#64
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I would be more willing to trust the EU if the U.S. hadn't basically poured money and "experts" into the Ukraine before the second election.

Also, historical behavior is an excellent predictor of future behavior. Many people always like to say, that was the past, things are different now. Of course, they've been saying that for fifty years, so that is also an indicator of future behavior.

The U.S. is a beast when it comes to democracy in other countries. Always has been, and presumably will continue to be so into the foreseeable future.

	19-09-2005 22:26									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I would be more willing to trust the EU if the U.S. hadn't basically poured money and "experts" into the Ukraine before the second election.

except thats a lie. The money and experts were small, much smalller than what Putin put in. And were directed to specific functions to support elections, which were well documented.

And if you want to look at historical performance, id suggest that the past performance of Putin and the KGB was none too good.

	19-09-2005 22:29									#66
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heres a link to the National Democratic Institute.

http://www.ndi.org/

Heres what John J. Sweeney has to say:



Statement by AFL-CIO President John J. Sweeney on the Occasion of the Twentieth Anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy
November 06, 2003


On behalf of the 13 million working women and men of the AFL-CIO, I congratulate the National Endowment for Democracy for the important successes of its first 20 years. As one of its founding organizations, the AFL-CIO is proud to have participated with the Endowment in the promotion of democracy around the world and the strengthening of democratic trade unionism.
The AFL-CIO takes this opportunity to reaffirm our support for the important work done by the NED. For our part, we will continue to work towards a more democratic and just world in which all workers and their families live in peace and security, with a voice in their own future, enjoying a fair share of the prosperity they create.

The victories we leave behind pale in comparison to the challenges before us. Today, even with the spread of democracy that we celebrate, two-fifths of the world’s people are not free to determine their own destiny. Despite the increased efforts to create a world under law, basic human rights are trampled in too many countries. And now the threat of global terrorism places a shroud on the security of people here and across the world

	19-09-2005 22:38									#67
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Sweeney selling out

	19-09-2005 22:55									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sweeney selling out

I suggest anyone interested look at the NDI website, and look at what theyve actually done wrt elections around the world.


Id go get the link to the American Center for International Labor Solidarity, but they focus on more narrowly defined labor concerns, rather than elections, from what I can gather.

	20-09-2005 01:19									#69
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WaPo has a good editorial on Ukraine

"Ukraine's Orange Split

Monday, September 19, 2005; Page A16

UKRAINE'S DEMOCRATIC revolution has ended the way most do, with the victorious coalition dividing into factions that are now battling each other. For the most part, this is a healthy development. The Orange Revolution movement that overturned a corrupt and autocratic regime last year was united by the cause of democracy and independence from Russia. Once that was achieved, ideological and policy differences were bound to surface. In Ukraine's case, President Viktor Yushchenko, a moderate and market-oriented reformer, has finally split with Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who espouses populist and statist policies. No violence has accompanied their rupture, and a parliamentary election scheduled for March provides a good opportunity for the country to choose between them.

In the short term, the split may well help stabilize Ukraine's economy, which has been turbulent ever since the revolution. After firing Ms. Tymoshenko and her cabinet, Mr. Yushchenko nominated a respected technocrat, Yuri Yekhanurov, as prime minister. Mr. Yekhanurov, who is likely to win parliamentary approval, probably will put a stop to the disruptive populism that the previous government frequently pursued, including huge increases in spending and attempts to control commodity prices. He will also limit the renationalization of state industries that were privatized by the previous autocratic government; though many of these transactions were corrupt, the government's seizures and plans for resale have raised their own questions.

Like last year's presidential campaign, the parliamentary elections will present Ukrainians with stark and potentially disruptive choices. Mr. Yushchenko is likely to offer continued market reforms and integration of Ukraine with Western institutions but also good relations with Russia; the more charismatic Ms. Tymoshenko will rail against big business and promise more social spending. Russian President Vladimir Putin, who could not contain his glee over the government breakdown, will hope that the pro-Moscow politicians he so aggressively backed last year will somehow seize the advantage. Western governments can hope that Ukraine continues steps toward joining institutions such as the World Trade Organization and cleans up lingering corruption. But the most vital interest will be ensuring that, whatever the outcome, Ukraine preserves the democracy its people demanded and won."

	20-09-2005 02:33									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sweeney selling out

Work of the NDI: Bolivia

Since January 2004, the NDI field office in Bolivia has been working to help political parties become more democratic, transparent and responsive to the needs of Bolivian citizens.

NDI implemented a nation-wide women's leadership school, Winning with Women. The first two phases included leadership and campaign strategy skills for active political women leaders and women nominated for municipal elections. The concluding phase consisted of a workshop on municipal management skills with women elected in December municipal elections. NDI's Winning with Women candidate school trained more than 1,200 women on political leadership skills, campaign strategies for the 2004 municipal elections and responsible municipal management practices. As a result of participating in the school, parties and political groups reinforced the practice of inclusive candidate recruitment strategies. Participants worked effectively in multiparty groups and formed collegial relationships across historic geographic and ethnic rifts.

In collaboration with other international community counterparts, NDI organized an international conference, Women Leaders Strengthening Democracy, where 400 participants drew lessons on increasing women's political participation from the experiences of featured panelists Representative Mercedes Cabanillas (American Popular Revolutionary Alliance, Peru), Senator Piedad Cordoba (Liberal Party, Colombia) and former Representative Manuela Alvarado (current appointee on the Presidential Commission for Human Rights, Guatemala).

In order to help Bolivian parties improve their communication with citizens, NDI conducted focus group research with women, youth and indigenous Bolivians prior to December municipal elections. Discussions captured popular opinions on political leaders and municipal citizen needs. NDI presented results to parties to use in municipal campaigns. Newly elected officials will also use these focus group results to better address constituent issues.

Program for Regional Party Renewal (PREPA)
Using participatory training methodologies, NDI has prepared 40 party trainers from eight parties, including UN, Movement of the Revolutionary Left (MIR), Nationalist Democratic Action (ADN), Movement Without Fear (MSM), National Revolutionary Movement (MNR), Democratic Christian Party (PDC), Pachakuti Indigenous Movement (MIP) and Movement Towards Socialism (MAS). These trainers will advance modernization efforts by replicating this training on the topics of internal democracy, transparency and outreach to new sectors.

	20-09-2005 09:26									#71
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quote: 1. from everything i followed, the second election was less fraudulent and more representative than the first.

Do you have any concrete information behind this statement apart from newspaper editorials?

	20-09-2005 12:46									#72
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Why is the Western media painting Timoshenko as a socialist now? What a cluster****.

Timoshenko can be best described as a neo-fascist(economically) and uses populism to achieve her goals politically. She reminds me actually of Hitler in his political youth.

Her "nationalization" campaign was actually a reprivatization campaign on a large scale, and was bound to disrupt the economic stability of the previous administration.

Ukraine should just elect the Communist Party(UCP-CPSU). It needs a Five-Year Plan.