12-09-2005 19:43									#1
	Total Mind Control vs a Pactmate in MP Increase Your PM Length

It seems that in SMAC ( I didn't check SMAX) that if you successfully engage in Total Mind Control of a non-AI Pactmate's base that the game doesn't give you a pop-up window allowing you to declare vendetta. The only options I see are to end the Pact in to diplo screen and/or pre-accept a truce offer there. Are either of these steps necessary or do I just get to leave the Pact in effect?

I don't see how to enter into vendetta without taking some ingame actions which I have no intention of taking. So, what's expected of me in MP?

	12-09-2005 20:04									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Total Mind Control is supposed to be a non-hostile way to take over a base with a probe team. The AI shouldn't get annoyed at you for it, but any intelligent player who figures out what happened will. In a new version of SMAC, it would be nice if there were some reason to not declare vendetta after what is intended to be a secret operation is sucessful, but for now, I would expect nothing less of a victim than vendetta. Unfortunately, the game doesn't make it easy to downgrade your diplomatic status with another faction, so your options are to end your pact and attack your target, or to have another faction ask you to declare vendetta against your target.

	12-09-2005 20:57									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

CT, are you saying that it is not allowed to mind control a non-AI pactmate's base in MP? If you are forced to end the Pact 1st then your troops are returned to their closest base. I see that that would offer some measure of protection to your pactmate. Since it's not required vs an AI pactmate in MP (is it?) then why should it be different for a non-AI player?

	12-09-2005 21:52									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Net Warrior CT, are you saying that it is not allowed to mind control a non-AI pactmate's base in MP? If you are forced to end the Pact 1st then your troops are returned to their closest base. I see that that would offer some measure of protection to your pactmate. Since it's not required vs an AI pactmate in MP (is it?) then why should it be different for a non-AI player?

I don't think its "not allowed" but if you mind-controlled a base of mine I would consider it an act of war and vendetta would ensue and I wouldn't care if I had to fire the first shot. That might not be in the spirit of the game but I never understood how total thought control would work. Sure the people IN the base can be brainwashed but how do you explain the remainder of the empire forgetting that a base left them.

Odd that your pactmate has not taken the usual step of having probe defendeers in their bases.

Actually probing is a game feature that annoys me with pactmates. I had an AI pactmate that I very much wanted to keep friendly although I could easily conquer them. What was frustrating was that there was no way to get rid of my pactmates probes without downgrading the relationship since the game didn't give me the kick em out option. The dang pactmate started stealing tech from my interior bases which no hostile could EVER get near ( it was SP so I did get diplomatic options). Why can't I expel an agent if he is from a friendly power?

	12-09-2005 22:32									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

When you end a pact, both sides' units in the other's territory return to bases.

While it is allowed by the rules to mind control a human player pactmate's base, and I would never consider it cheating, I would certainly consider it hostile, and a severe violation of trust.

	12-09-2005 22:52									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory While it is allowed by the rules to mind control a human player pactmate's base, and I would never consider it cheating, I would certainly consider it hostile, and a severe violation of trust.

Thats exactly my thinking. There is no way the human is going to "forget" that you stole their base, even if technically that is the way the game mechanics are supposed to work

	12-09-2005 23:18									#7
	Support Apolyton

Yes, of course, I expect my pactmate to be POed if I mind control his/her base. I don't mind that, as long as it's understood by him/her and the Poly community that it's a perfectly acceptable in game practise. I wouldn't want to taint my reputation regarding future PBEM's.
The reason I ask is that, unless I'm mistaken, it's ok to steal a pactmates research as long as you declare vendetta with the pop-up window that immediately follows. This is why I asked if ending the pact and offering a preaccepted truce thru the diplo window (the most you can downgrade without an overt attack) would be appropriate.

	12-09-2005 23:32									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ah, I see your question. Actually, I'd consider it legitimate to say nothing, since total mind control is supposed to be covert. If he notices, and wants to end the pact, you should cooperate, but it's his responsibility.

	13-09-2005 02:12									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Net Warrior Yes, of course, I expect my pactmate to be POed if I mind control his/her base. I don't mind that, as long as it's understood by him/her and the Poly community that it's a perfectly acceptable in game practise.

I would consider this completely acceptable game practise. It is however both sneaky and underhanded and it is unlikely that your pactmate would ever trust you in games again.

Even completely ethical play will follow you from game to game. In one game I broke a treaty to attack an opponent--well the level of venom in his roleplaying escalated to such a point that I figured this player would never trust me again. We were in 2 other games at the time a thankfully the turns were coming to me rather than him next. I ended up atatcking him the very next turn in each of the other games

Interestingly, while I have attacked treaty-mates many times, I have never attacked a MP pactmate. And my victim in those 3 games was soemone that I had pacted to the end for victory in 1 and perhaps 2 games (memory is faulty).

Reputation will follow you on other things as well. If you get known as a great researcher, people may team up to match your research. If you are known as a prober extraordinare, people may adopt greater defenses etc. The fun part is trying to adapt your play against opponenents familiar with your reputation

	15-09-2005 22:54									#10
	Support Apolyton

On the topic of AI pactmates probing your bases, this is why I NEVER pact up with AIs sharing my landmass, there's just too many ways for them to jerk my chain without breaking the pact. You're far better off kicking them off your continent. For submissives, if you want to secure the right to pact with them at a later time, simply refuse all contact before you're ready for them to surrender.

AIs sharing your continent must always be expunged if at all possible, regardless of ideological compatibility. In those circumstances where that's not feasible, at least right away, make 1/1 probe garrisions to park in your vulnerable bases, and defend against casual probe attempts.

	16-09-2005 01:51									#11
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron . In those circumstances where that's not feasible, at least right away, make 1/1 probe garrisions to park in your vulnerable bases, and defend against casual probe attempts.

Its this waste of resources that would peeve me- I don't want to have to put probes in my bases that are 8 and 10 tiles inside my empire and which NO ONE but a pactmate could conceivably reach.

I see their probe moving around and I guess I could heep shifting probe defenders around each turn but thats even more of a PIA and frankly I would rather go to war than spend turn after turn shuffling probe defenders about

	16-09-2005 02:14									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Guys, your pactmate will only steal from you if you're fastly ahead in tech. i.e., you're not treating them like an equal in the pact.

The only CPUs I find easy to ally with are Lal, Roze and Aki. The drones often start off a good ally but really hate the top dog. The rest I'm unlikely to even consider a pact with.

	16-09-2005 03:30									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Senethro Guys, your pactmate will only steal from you if you're fastly ahead in tech. i.e., you're not treating them like an equal in the pact.

An equal ?? NO chance. Any tech I give and AI pactmate may find its way to my enemies. My general rule with AIpactmates is to GIVE them any tech my enemies already have PLUS any tech they are about to discover that I already have. If that isn't enough, then to heck with 'em

	16-09-2005 03:36									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Why would you be able to kick out their probes? You can't kick out their other units, can you?

That's the problem. If you are pact-mates, then you don't have a way of selectively kicking them out. They aren't supposed to be doing naughty things to you in the first place, after all. (yeah, right!)

But I have seen my AI-Pactmates send in probe teams into my interior cities to give me probe defenders. Go figure. Or take the long way around to common enemies. So the AI can have many legitimate reasons for walking through your land. If you don't want to risk them tech stealing, just don't let there be any AI on your land.

	16-09-2005 05:28									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Rather than defending yourself in all spots a probe team could attack, take out the probe team with your own. If the AI makes a habit of it, of course, splatter them. In TCP/IP games, expelling units isn't an option, and treaty-mates have an annoying habit of trying to probe me. The solution is the same.

	16-09-2005 06:33									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: An equal ?? NO chance. Any tech I give and AI pactmate may find its way to my enemies. My general rule with AIpactmates is to GIVE them any tech my enemies already have PLUS any tech they are about to discover that I already have. If that isn't enough, then to heck with 'em

ive never seen the ai though steal my stuff. but my AI's are boosted to play well enough without techtrades anyhow

	16-09-2005 06:34									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Flubber An equal ?? NO chance. Any tech I give and AI pactmate may find its way to my enemies. My general rule with AIpactmates is to GIVE them any tech my enemies already have PLUS any tech they are about to discover that I already have. If that isn't enough, then to heck with 'em

I've had pactmates treat me like that and I've always considered the possibility of Planet buster shaped revenge in such situations. Out of the blue, just for the heck of it.

	16-09-2005 06:40									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

senethro! you had better played and passed the FC turn if you have the spare time to comment here