13-09-2005 13:42									#1
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Hi

I've picked up again my SMAX and have a few questions:

(I'm playing on Librarian):

1. Why is it that when I try to conquer a base (which I think is the main base of another faction) I keep getting this message that I'm overflanked or something ? This is not true. I come along with 14 impact rovers and there are no other units in the vicinity (even formers). So I cannot take that base where the leader hides, very frustrating.

2. When do other factions surrender to you ? I've had factions with only two cities and would not surrender...

3. Should I design units with additional PSI combat to fight other units (aswell as aliens and native life forms) ?

4. I finished the game (turn 2500) and I was leading on every aspect but the game didn't say I'd won. I had all victory conditions enabled. You cannot win by points ? Do you have to specifically win with one of the victory conditions ?

That's all for now, I'll post more questions as I play more and get to know better this wonderful game. Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

	13-09-2005 15:54									#2
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1. I'm not at all sure what you're describing here. ZoC rules don't prevent you conquering bases.

2.When you've beaten them. They need to have no/little military relative to yours (and newish human players tend to have small super-high tech militaries) and you need to be "noble" and to have dealt with them fairly despite your warmongering.

3. Ummm. I've not often played the game long enough to get psi combat. There might be some use for psi armour on your navy or stuff but its not something I've investigated.

4. As you improve at the game this really isn't something that will trouble you at all
Soon enough you'll be winning all games before 2300.

	13-09-2005 16:02									#3
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I made this as a tutorial for PBEM multiplay but it may be of interest to you.

forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=3829617

Open it as a "load multiplayer game" and "hotseat".

The password for each faction is the colour of each faction, except for the peacekeepers which you can set yourself.

The Gaians are showing pop-booming. You need to know this. Each base has a +6 growth rating because of Democracy/Planned/Childrens Creche. The effect is cloning vats style population explosion.

The Hive is showing ICS, infinite city sprawl. A method of resource gathering where cities are fed by intensive farming using supply crawlers and workers are changed to specialists. (press F2 and look at its lab output)

The Morganites possess another use of supply crawlers, the energy park. Note the land and arrangement of echelon mirrors. Also note Morgan base facilities and theeffect they have on econ/lab output.

The Spartans/Believers are having a small war. Not interesting to you unless you want to see how combat is done on multiplay.

The peacekeepers have the most votes and can call the council. Again, this is just to show how council works in MP.
Hope this helps.

	13-09-2005 16:52									#4
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Many thanks Senethro . I'll read the tutorial.

	13-09-2005 20:56									#5
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Regarding your first point, do you have a pact/treaty with anyone? If so, they might have a unit of theirs inside the base of the faction you are trying to take. (If they have a pact with that faction, of course).

	13-09-2005 21:27									#6
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I do, with the Pirates which happen to be right besides the Data Angels' base I want to take over.

Could that be it ? Or is it a data angels sensor which I haven't destroyed ?

	13-09-2005 21:59									#7
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likely a unit hidden in the fungus. move units into all 9 squares around your units then reload and kill it.happans all the time in my experiance.

	13-09-2005 22:14									#8
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Aren't units in fungus made visible when they interfere in ZoC?

	13-09-2005 22:15									#9
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You cannot capture a base with another factions unit inside IIRC. You need to either

1. kill that unit , necessarily going to war with the unit you killed OR

2. Convince the occupying faction to break pact with your enemy-- bribes may work or a probe frame job-- Either way the base will be vacated and you can move in OR

3. Wait-- its possible , even likely that the unit is on the way to somewhere else and next turn or the next will be out of the way

Sensors are no problem and you should not need to move into 9 tiles to see a unit that is ZOCing you. I find whenever I can't move due to ZOC issues, the unit impacting me becomes visible even if in fungus.


More generally, a treatymates unit will ZOC you but a pactmates will not. If you already have a unit adjacent to the basethough, this should not be a problem. I have never had ZOC issues prevent actually entering a base.

Oh and probe teams ignore ZOC as do aircraft so an easy way to get past the issue is to move a probe 1 tile and then move your units onto your probe. ZOC never applies to movement to a tile where you have a unit. Unless thre is a wall of units, using probes or aircraft will always let you slip through gaps

	14-09-2005 00:43									#10
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Regarding question 4, you need to achieve one of the victory conditions. So conquer all the belligerents, vote your self victory in the council, build the Voice and Trancendence Projects, or corner the energy market (best left until you've played a few games)

There are a couple of exceptions to this if you are the Aliens. One can't Transcend and there is the 'build the beacons' option.

	14-09-2005 00:54									#11
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or win by creating 6 subspace generators(as aliens)

	14-09-2005 02:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 or win by creating 6 subspace generators(as aliens)

and that differs from redfred saying "build the beacons" how exactly?

	14-09-2005 02:43									#13
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Many organisms contain redundancy in their organs, so therefore by the power of bad analogies, it must be good for forums to do so as well.

	14-09-2005 03:40									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro Many organisms contain redundancy in their organs, so therefore by the power of bad analogies, it must be good for forums to do so as well.

True-- I really shouldn't nitpick-- I wouldn't want people going through the forums picking out where I missed stuff

	14-09-2005 03:55									#15
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it differs because he posted his after reading the above replies while i simply said it without reading first.

	14-09-2005 03:59									#16
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Class, what have we learned about not reading everyones replies in a thread?

	14-09-2005 04:10									#17
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yes,teacher,we wont do it again we promise!

	14-09-2005 04:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 yes,teacher,we wont do it again we promise!

nah -- keep on trucking and getting your +1s for post count or whatever

	14-09-2005 05:14									#19
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you must be really dense flub

	14-09-2005 06:01									#20
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Denseness award goes to me - it has been so long since I've played either alien that I'd forgotten what the 'ET call home' thing was called.

	14-09-2005 10:49									#21
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A phone?

	14-09-2005 16:18									#22
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I've been trying again last night.

I think it boils down that I'm attacking with impact rovers (attack 4) against a base that has the Citizen Defense Force, 3 garrisons of plasma something which have 3 as defense.

So it seems the CPU is telling me that my odds are very low. It also reads out something about strength when comparing attacking and defending units and it spells out like they are three times as strong as me or something.

So I have 10 impact rovers parked in year 2.270 and just cannot take over those lame bases.

I guess I'll have to upgrade the rovers to chaos 8 guns, but that's really expensive and cannot afford it.

I'll have to wait for Doctrine: Air Power to pull it off with a chaos penetrator.

The game is way too short. It's only 400 turns. No way I can possibly win on year 2.300, i'm still pop-booming and building energy banks.

Too many techs to chose from, it really makes me dizzy.

Thanks for the feedback lads.

	14-09-2005 16:47									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Drakan I've been trying again last night. I think it boils down that I'm attacking with impact rovers (attack 4) against a base that has the Citizen Defense Force, 3 garrisons of plasma something which have 3 as defense. So it seems the CPU is telling me that my odds are very low. It also reads out something about strength when comparing attacking and defending units and it spells out like they are three times as strong as me or something. So I have 10 impact rovers parked in year 2.270 and just cannot take over those lame bases. I guess I'll have to upgrade the rovers to chaos 8 guns, but that's really expensive and cannot afford it. I'll have to wait for Doctrine: Air Power to pull it off with a chaos penetrator. The game is way too short. It's only 400 turns. No way I can possibly win on year 2.300, i'm still pop-booming and building energy banks. Too many techs to chose from, it really makes me dizzy. Thanks for the feedback lads.

Other options

1. Use probe teams to sabatoge the operimeter defenses

2. Use probe teams to mind control the base

3. Artillery bombard the defenders down in health and then attack

4. Attack right now with more impact rovers on the way. 10 units with an effective strength MAY be enough to take the bases deprnding on the other modifiers involved. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a few units to take a base

	14-09-2005 19:09									#24
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Even though the game says you must retire on 2500, you can continue playing anyway, just not for score.

Since you're here, you'll be defeating normal (transcend) AIs by the dozen. Just give it time.

	14-09-2005 22:26									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Other options 1. Use probe teams to sabatoge the operimeter defenses

Not gonna work if the base has the SP Citizen Defense Force yielding the free perimeter defense.

	14-09-2005 23:39									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Not gonna work if the base has the SP Citizen Defense Force yielding the free perimeter defense.

Hey Ogie-- good to see you around.

Good catch on the CDF thing as I forgot it was an SP perimeter. Interesting thing though is I am pretty sure you can destroy the Hive's faction perimeter in a given base so I might have assumed (incorrectly?) that you could destroy a CDF perimeter as well.

So the new advice would be

Throw everything you can to capture the base housing the CDF and then fight on a more eadvantageous basis

Oh other tidbits

1. Try using infantry against bases where possible
2. Try to destroy nearby sensors to remove the defenders sensor bonus
3. Try to boost your morale when battles are tough ( command centres, monoliths and SE settings can all help get that added 25% / 37%/50% on the attack value

Think about it -- You can get an impact unit up to an effective strenth of about 6 attack and if the plasma defender is vanilla and with no sensor, you might be able to fight with a 50-50 chance of winning each battle

	16-09-2005 14:01									#27
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Thanks for your kind words Chaos Theory. I'm looking forward to beat the game on Trascend, I'm learning alot everyday.

I'm about to beat tonight ascent to trascend victory on librarian for my first time before year 2500.

Thanks Flubber, I hadn't realized the importance of the morale modifiers you mention. I'm more of a builder player really.

I must say this game is truly impressive. It's a shame I didn't play it when I was younger.

	16-09-2005 15:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Interesting thing though is I am pretty sure you can destroy the Hive's faction perimeter in a given base so I might have assumed (incorrectly?) that you could destroy a CDF perimeter as well.

The Hive receive a free perimeter defense at every base founded, it just means the facility is pre-built (you can also think of it as an instant built perimeter defense at the moment the base is founded), so it is merely a normal free facility, and as such prone to probe team actions.

	16-09-2005 19:38									#29
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Actually, it's not quite a normal facility, because strange things happen when bases with free facilities (from faction powers) are conquered. However, such facilities can be destroyed by probe teams as normal.

	16-09-2005 22:14									#30
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play your first game on transcend. i struggled to achieve a peacefull tie and after that game,won every single vs AI game ever. its my philosophy to always take things at the hardest and then its all easy from there