14-09-2005 03:28									#1
	Goedel, Escher, Bach Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I've just started reading it. I know many of you have read it? It got a little bit complex on page 2. Should I pursue reading or quit?

	14-09-2005 03:50									#2
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Great book ! Keep going by all means!

	14-09-2005 05:29									#3
	Got spare money?

I was given this book as a gift by my girlfriend when I was in high school.

I'll turn 43 next week.

I still haven't finished it. But I intend to...

	14-09-2005 06:17									#4
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I read it a long time ago. Parts of it will be hard going unless you've got a math or computer science background. However, you can skip over anything you don't completely understand and still get lots out of it. I knew one person who only read the dialogs that open each chapter and still enjoyed it.

	14-09-2005 06:33									#5
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It's a fantastic book, and you can definitely make it through, at the very least, the first half.

Keep at it! (I'll admit it did take two gos with me, once to get up to the first half, and a second time to finish all the way through).

	14-09-2005 14:25									#6
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OK, I'll keep reading.

	14-09-2005 15:43									#7
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what book is that and who's the author?

	14-09-2005 15:59									#8
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Added to list at Amazon, seems to be cool. Haven't made the purchase yet, though, still not certain about it.

More pros!

	14-09-2005 16:20									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This is one book that all quasiintellectuals recommend to each other. It was bound to be recommended to me sooner or later, but now I worry if mathematics will be too difficult.

By the way, it pays off just to refresh knowledge about Escher's work. I'm going through some galleries right now. Very nice.

	14-09-2005 16:46									#10
	Re: Goedel, Escher, Bach Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion I've just started reading it. I know many of you have read it? It got a little bit complex on page 2. Should I pursue reading or quit?

You made it to page 2? Good work! I made it 1.5 pages before putting it down and not picking it up again. That was back in the 80's..

	14-09-2005 18:06									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've got into it 20 or 30 pages now. He explains Goedel's work now. I've donwnloaded Goedel's theorems and proofs and don't understand them at all. Should I:

1) Invest time to grasp the basics of number theory and understand the proofs

2) Proceed reading with a vague understanding of Goedel's work

3) abandon the book as too difficult?

	14-09-2005 18:12									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You've "downloaded Goedel's theorems and proofs"? If you mean you've found their rigorous, mathematical statements, it's no wonder you can't understand them. It's actually quite a technical theorem, and you couldn't understand the full proof without a strong mathematical background. Hofstadter's version is very understandable though; a basic acquaintance with formal logic is all that's needed, and even without that I'd imagine you could work through it (though it would be a lot harder).

So I recommend option 2.

	14-09-2005 18:23									#13
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Civman2000, that's probably what I'm going to do.

	14-09-2005 18:31									#14
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By the way, the proof is not supposed to be hard, proofs are usually obvious when you read them and easy to comprehend. But I don't know the theory within which the proof is done, I don't understand the notation used, so I'll skip it... not with an easy heart though. Goedel's theorems are essential in this book. I'm trusting you that the author does a good work explaining them in language.

	14-09-2005 20:49									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have a math background and also suggest option 2.
I read the book maybe two years ago, thought it was good, though got maybe a bit bogged down and repetitive in the second half. Second half should have been condensed a bit...

	16-09-2005 05:30									#16
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Here is my progress: I think I have made some important insights into the MU puzzle, namely, that it can't be solved because the operations allowed are not sufficient

I'll keep at it for a while. After I solve it, and I hope I will, I'll make a computer program to solve it, for exercize.

	16-09-2005 05:31									#17
	Put an end to popups!

And folks, please, no spoilers

	16-09-2005 05:50									#18
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The butler did it with a knife.

	16-09-2005 06:01									#19
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hardly.

Here's the puzzle for you folks, in hope it keeps my thread floating as you try to solve it. On the other hand, it means that there could be spoilers for others if someone solves it. Please use spoiler tags if you manage to solve it.

THE MU PUZZLE

The string (ordered sequence of characters) you begin with is 'MI', and you need to make from it the string 'MU'. Only these operations are allowed. You can repeat them and use them in any order you want as many times as you need:

1. You can duplicate the part of string after character 'M'. For example, you can turn 'MI' you start with into 'MII' and so on.

2. You can replace three 'I' characters that appear in a sequence with an 'U'. For example, you can turn 'MUIIIU' into 'MUUU'.

3. If there are two 'U' in sequence you can drop them. 'MIUUU' can become 'MIU' for example, or 'MIUUII' can become 'MIII'.

4. You can add character 'U' if the string ends with 'I'. For example if you have 'MUIUI' you can make it 'MUIUIU'.


Enjoy!

	16-09-2005 06:42									#20
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion (...)THE MU PUZZLE(...)

we did this last year in math class, for factoring...

give you an answer later

	16-09-2005 06:48									#21
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MII
MIIII
MIIIIII
MIIIIIIU
MUUU
MU

Did I get it right?

EDIT: Crap, its wrong

I quit, because I'm tired...

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Here is my progress: I think I have made some important insights into the MU puzzle, namely, that it can't be solved because the operations allowed are not sufficient I'll keep at it for a while. After I solve it, and I hope I will, I'll make a computer program to solve it, for exercize.

I think your right....

	16-09-2005 07:09									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

spoiler(highlight to read): Originally posted by VetLegion Here is my progress: I think I have made some important insights into the MU puzzle, namely, that it can't be solved because the operations allowed are not sufficient

	16-09-2005 11:55									#23
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I think IW is right

spoiler(highlight to read): You are asked to produce 3 I's from the set of rules, but there isn't a production rule that allows for this

	16-09-2005 12:44									#24
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So you basically read his solution and reworded it claiming it as your own work. You are from China!

	16-09-2005 14:23									#25
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Go DaShi.

	16-09-2005 14:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi So you basically read his solution and reworded it claiming it as your own work.

Incorrect. If you in fact bothered to read both spoilers, instead of trying to grind an axe, you would have noticed that there is an additional piece of information in mine.

	16-09-2005 18:27									#27
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OK, now I move on with the book

	16-09-2005 19:09									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Incorrect. If you in fact bothered to read both spoilers, instead of trying to grind an axe, you would have noticed that there is an additional piece of information in mine.

Yes, obviously gleamed from IW work. You could have at least given him some credit.

	16-09-2005 21:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Yes, obviously gleamed from IM work. You could have at least given him some credit.

At least you admitted that you have an axe to grind and you failed to read the spoilers carefully.

That's a good start.

BTW, tell me, how could an additional piece of information be found in the original? AFAIK, "additional" is a rather elementary word.

	17-09-2005 16:25									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Axe to grind? By pointing out plagarism. I'll admit I am against it. I'm a scientist by trade, afterall. I'll remind you that you are the one now throwing insults.

The original solves the puzzle. Once it is realized how the puzzle can be solved, it's easy to identity the rest. IW's part was the significant contribution. Do you agree? If so, I'll be willing to let the matter rest. Afterall, I really don't have an axe to grind, as you say.

Last edited by DaShi on 18-09-2005 at 10:13