14-09-2005 22:35									#31
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You're right. It could. But it's still a rather obvious extension to say that two self-sufficient cities creating their own culture points, units, etc., will be better than one. I'm not saying this isn't logical, of course, I'm just saying it's been done to death. I suspect we are seeing a nod toward giving players some incentive not to build so many cities, but game mechanics will still take over.

	14-09-2005 23:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG so, since people care about the things they love, if you're going to be negative in a forum for civ lovers, you'd better be negative about something concrete rather than impressions of reviewers playing against soren and sid

sounds like a golden rule for all forums


about the screenies

did anyone else see the uranium?

	14-09-2005 23:33									#33
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I did.

	14-09-2005 23:36									#34
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the verdict is in (from the new article)

"Fargo just built and built and built and expanded his culture to a point where bordering cities were helpless against his might"

yin26 will not like it


EDIT

dont remeber the world overview video

Cool !

	15-09-2005 01:05									#35
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there's this thing called "learning the new game mechanics and adopting your/developing new strategies" which obviously the writer could not do in a matter of hours(actually he probably had every little civ experience

quote: Fargo and I were doomed from the beginning in a game against the masters themselves when I mistakenly sent out settlers with no escort. While I didn't encounter barbarians, my settlers were sadly eaten by a trio of hungry lions. Send troops with your settlers! They're vulnerable and need protection.

come on people, lets wait for the impressions of someone who played a bit more civ in his life....

	15-09-2005 01:50									#36
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I think there IS an argument to be made that there is an element of ICS, simply because of the writer lagging behind when he lost 1 settler.

Did he lag behind because of the wasted production on the settler?

Or did he lag behind because he didnt have 2 cities, when his oponent did?

I think the writer doesnt answer, but we will

	15-09-2005 02:18									#37
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I also wonder why the pessimists here immediately assume that 'Build'='Build cities'-i.e ICS. I have read that same review a half a dozen times and I see nothing to indicate that ICS won the day. By build, it is just as possible that he was building up within cities-not simply building more of them. As I said in my previous posts, if Fargo had simply built more and more cities (and not built more improvements within each city), then he would have (a) lacked the income necessary to maintain-let alone grow-his culture and (b) would have not been able to adequately specialise his cities in order to get the Great Artists he needed to generate those Great Works they mentioned. As I said, cost alone-not to mention lost opportunities to produce Great People-will themselves make ICS a far less successful tactic. My advice, Yin, is to await more concrete info than simply a claim someone 'built and built' before so conclusively declaring that 'ICS is alive and well' (which you are doing, BTW).

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	15-09-2005 02:43									#38
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Why was there uranium on that map? The particular game didn't appear to have advanced far enough along the tech tree for it.

	15-09-2005 02:44									#39
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(or was it something like emeralds or jade or whatever?)

	15-09-2005 03:40									#40
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The_Aussie_Lurker:

True, I guess I am making the assertion, which I will pull back and wait for the game to be released to be sure. But at the same point, many of the key indicators are there...

	15-09-2005 03:43									#41
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i still dont see all the fuss. these 2 reviewers specialty is not TBS and iirc their pre-game reports differ greatly from my own experiance in any related games that i read the review then played it,or at least if i play skillfully.

	15-09-2005 04:25									#42
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Well, I read the same reviews you did and didn't see any of the indicators which you claimed to have seen-in fact I saw the opposite. When I read 'Build', in the absence of the specific phrase 'build city', I take it to mean 'build up, not out'. i.e. building up the population, specialisation and culture of the cities you already have, rather than building ever outward with more and more cities.
Also, it doesn't take an accounting genius to realise that: with cities automatically costing money, with revenue from tiles no longer guaranteed (i.e, no automatic commerce from roads) and culture/tech levels costing ever more to maintain the more cities you have, that the former strategies of ICS are going to be totally ineffective, unless the reviewer explicitly says otherwise.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	15-09-2005 04:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG there's this thing called "learning the new game mechanics and adopting your/developing new strategies" which obviously the writer could not do in a matter of hours(actually he probably had every little civ experience quote: Fargo and I were doomed from the beginning in a game against the masters themselves when I mistakenly sent out settlers with no escort. While I didn't encounter barbarians, my settlers were sadly eaten by a trio of hungry lions. Send troops with your settlers! They're vulnerable and need protection. come on people, lets wait for the impressions of someone who played a bit more civ in his life....

I think that is a great point, I mean, you only need to have played civ one or two times to realize that you always need to gaurd your settlers! It doesn't even have to have been civ4 this is true in 1, 2, 3 and both ctp games.

	15-09-2005 07:07									#44
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Thanks for the counter-points, guys. I'm not crying "The Sky is Falling," but those bits of information from a gameplay standpoint did give me some real meat to chew on.

One day you will choke, and nobody is gonna help you.

	15-09-2005 07:19									#45
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quote: One day you will choke, and nobody is gonna help you.

quote: Thanks for the counter-points, guys. I'm not crying "The Sky is Falling," but those bits of information from a gameplay standpoint did give me some real meat to chew on.

so if thats your 'real meat' what happans when you get the game? get a blender?

	15-09-2005 10:58									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 so if thats your 'real meat' what happans when you get the game? get a blender?

He'll be eating the box by then anyway...

	15-09-2005 11:04									#47
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ok, enough

please return to the main issue: how much does life suck when a civ newbie gets to play against Sid just because he writes for IGN?

	15-09-2005 12:26									#48
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yeah, i thought the other day - how come there was not a single instance in which firaxis posted screens (hell, ONE screen) first on apolyton or civfanatics. i mean, that would cost them absolutely nothing...and i reckon you deserved such treat a long time ago....

	15-09-2005 12:58									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso yeah, i thought the other day - how come there was not a single instance in which firaxis posted screens (hell, ONE screen) first on apolyton or civfanatics. i mean, that would cost them absolutely nothing...and i reckon you deserved such treat a long time ago....

Because we are "The Fan", i.e. the site where a lot of people is ready to say sentence like: "I'm ready to pay to be a betatester", "I'll buy the game, good or not", "I'm ready to pay twice the game value to have it into the dedicated exclusive version, and enjoy the ugliest box in game history because I'm a civ-masochist", etc.

OTOH, this is the site where some of us (myself included, I'm guilty) can judge, and dissect any jpeg screenshot and news commenting on unit scale, trees on the railroad, ugly road intersecting rivers, ICS, blah, blah, blah, icing the cake with artist like Sn00py able to match and enhance any graphics Firaxis can throw at us.

No discount, no dedicated version, no exclusive news, almost no thanks in history. I'm wonder if we really are "heavily dedicated Civ players" or "Firaxis Groupies"

	15-09-2005 15:40									#50
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groupies it is

	15-09-2005 15:53									#51
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Fair enough everybody, but when / if I'm proven right, will the relevant people here publicly own up to being wrong?

	15-09-2005 16:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG ok, enough please return to the main issue: how much does life suck when a civ newbie gets to play against Sid just because he writes for IGN?

Platypus Rex sets down his spoon and promises to behave

"heavily dedicated Civ players" - guilty

	15-09-2005 16:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Fair enough everybody, but when / if I'm proven right, will the relevant people here publicly own up to being wrong?

Yin, if the game will be limited as you have guessed in many points, every one else would know the true, isn't it?
So, is it your point to know you was on the right side from the early days, or to humiliate someone that was wrong (and already suffered for his/her previus hope of a great game)?

Not mentioning the proven fact that will ever be someone that will considered itself right and the game great, never mind of the reality.

I know you are good enough to survive to a success with the same gentleman style as if you are accepting a defeat.

A last point: a good game will be a success that everyone of us will enjoy. A bad game will still have some fan and make fresh money for Firaxis, but will be a pity for every one else.
You know I'm not jumping on the fanboy wagon, but few days before the gold version, nothing we can say can change the Firaxis design of the game, so I'll try to think positive until proven wrong.

	15-09-2005 16:34									#54
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quote: You're right. It could. But it's still a rather obvious extension to say that two self-sufficient cities creating their own culture points, units, etc., will be better than one.

I have to especially take issue with this point, Yin (sorry, I missed it before).
What you are forgetting is that cities don't create culture by themselves-culture comes instead through investment, in the same way as research. The same goes for units-though to a lesser extent.
For instance, consider this. Lets say that in order to maintain a base culture of 100 points, you need to invest 150 gold for 10 cities (and you have a budget of 500gpt). Now you build 5 new cities for a cost of 20 gpt each plus the cost of maintaining your base culture at 100 points has increased by 75gpt. This means that you are now paying an extra 175gpt simply to maintain (not increase) your base culture, thus cutting your budget back from 350gpt to 175gpt-this means less money to support troops and less money to support research. However, if this 175 gpt had been invested directly into the culture budget, then you would have doubled the amount of base culture you are producing in your civilization (or, you can maintain the same culture level, and instead invest your income into higher tech research, supporting a larger army and/or funding espionage).
So, you see how your obvious conclusions suddenly don't really hold together so well-and this is even before you consider the impacts of religion, wonders and improvements, great people and civics!
Something tells me that all the assumptions and tactics which have served us in the past will be the very same that bring us defeat in civ4.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	15-09-2005 19:06									#55
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quote: ... , so I'll try to think positive until proven wrong.

I'm negative enough, I also enjoy positive/happy thoughts much more than those other ones.

quote: Something tells me that all the assumptions and tactics which have served us in the past will be the very same that bring us defeat in civ4.

I am so exCITed about what I will have to unlearn for civ4.

	15-09-2005 19:42									#56
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Adm.Naismith: The point is simply to have some fun. Like placing bets on a football team. I think I'm making the right bet, that's all.

Aussie_Lurker: I'm willing to reserve judgement, but I still don't see how economies of scale are suddenly not going to work in Civ 4. In your example, gold was the limiting factor...but when was the last time you were hurting for gold in a Civ game? I understand that part of your argument is that more cities cost you in more ways, but certainly more cities must also create more profit ... otherwise you couldn't afford one city let alone 10. This, to me, is obvious.

What's not obvious, of course, is the balance that Firaxis may be striking in all of this. If at least the manner in which I have to spend my money to keep my empire (no matter how many cities) together is more interesting and strategic, then this itself will represent an improvement. It won't get at the core issue of economy (and repetition) of scale, but it would be an important shift.

So, I'm willing to wait for the game on this issue unless new details surface to stir the debate some more.

	15-09-2005 20:04									#57
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Given that Civ has always been about the harvesting of food, shields and commerce from tiles, and that growth=power, and that land=resources, we can certainly expect economies of scale.

I hope, like many players, that Civ 4 will allow more strategies than bigger=better by rewarding upward rather than outward growth. However, getting completely away from economies of scale would seem to ditch the basic ingredient of Civ - so it seems likely that Yin will be disapponted.

Yin, I suggest you don't buy it before reading the critical response on the fan forums, but I'd be interested to see a design model of a Civ-type game that you would like. I think it would be a radical departure from the Civ we know, but I would be interested in your vision of the kind of game you have in mind.

	15-09-2005 20:33									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I was struck by something reading the article. Isn't anyone surprised at the fact that these IGM reviewers claimed that Sid&Soren kept rolling-out GWs ?

Up until C3 skilled players don't build GWs at all; they are captured.

I guess it was for demonstration purposes ? Or am I missing something ?

	15-09-2005 21:14									#59
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Adm.Naismith: The point is simply to have some fun. Like placing bets on a football team. I think I'm making the right bet, that's all.

Ah, it was a bet! Sorry I misunderstand the meaning of your question: my fault.
Do you like italian pizza? I'm ready to bet one with you... if you are ready to come here in Italy (north part, near the city of Milano).
The bet is you'll enjoy the coming Civ IV, at least for three months
Do you accept the bet?

	15-09-2005 21:20									#60
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quote: @yin26: Fair enough everybody, but when / if I'm proven right, will the relevant people here publicly own up to being wrong?

Wait a minute, do you mean WE will have to eat boxes too?

quote: @Drakan: Up until C3 skilled players don't build GWs at all; they are captured.

I would dare to say I am a skilled Civ player, having played it massively since the first version came out, and I must have 'conquered' about 10 wonders at most when I went against civs that attacked me. Otherwise I like to take the challenge of building most of them myself, at which I am now quite successful (disregarding the uninteresting ones)...

It's always a matter of playstyle and your own ethical self - I find it much more gratifying to own a wonder I built with my own (slave labor) hands...