14-09-2005 21:55									#1
	Bombers, gunmen kill 151 in Iraq Suffering from ads?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast...main/index.html


This struggle with al-Qaeda is more about class than it is about religion. This flood of suicide bombers consists of desperate impoverished Muslims whose misery is harnessed by al-Qaeda agents and focussed on al-Qaeda targets. Even with a greater community outreach by Muslims all over the world to promote peace to their followers locally, the suicide bombings will remain static because of misery in third world Muslim oligarchies and monarchies. The lack of available resources in these countries and the warlords who horde resources like oil are fuel to the suicide bomber machinery.

The London bombers were no different, despite coming from middle class backgrounds. If there was sufficient infrastructure in their homeland to provide education and employment then they would not need to be living in a foreign country to improve their situation. I'm sure that the discrimination and alienation that they feel in certain foreign countries combined with daily reports of death by fellow muslims who do not have the means to escape their homeland creates enough sadness in many to make them suceptable to al-Qaeda brainwashers..

Religion is just a convenient way to corral minds receptive to suicide bombing. Ironically, it's a way to remove the moral objection to commiting murder. To become a saint and sleep with a score of virgins while at Allah's side in heaven sounds a lot better than the misery they face on Earth.

They have no hope for things to get better otherwise. Without hope, they cannot have faith. Those who are in power in the Middle East must give away their power in favor of a system of government that spreads wealth more evenly and allows greater personal freedom, they must restore hope to their people, seperate of religion.

	14-09-2005 22:02									#2
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Terrorism is rampant in a country that was free of terrorism before. What a successful foreign policy initiative this has been.

	14-09-2005 22:17									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Terrorism is rampant in a country that was free of terrorism before.

Iraqi civilians are being killed, by the same people who were killing them when Saddam was in power.

	14-09-2005 22:17									#4
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quote: This flood of suicide bombers consists of desperate impoverished Muslims

Cite?

	14-09-2005 22:20									#5
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Mission accomplished.

	14-09-2005 22:26									#6
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Iraqi civilians are being killed, by the same people who were killing them when Saddam was in power.

Surely you don't think the situation is comparable?

	14-09-2005 22:44									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Eli quote: This flood of suicide bombers consists of desperate impoverished Muslims Cite?

Listen to any news report where they are able to identify who the bomber was and provide a bio.

	14-09-2005 22:58									#8
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****ing liberal. I heard the death toll was at 150. Damn you and your liberal media bias.

	14-09-2005 23:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Mission accomplished.

	14-09-2005 23:55									#10
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they just need to be hugged more

	15-09-2005 08:49									#11
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quote: Iraqi civilians are being killed, by the same people who were killing them when Saddam was in power.

Believing your own propaganda about Saddam being equal only to Hitler

Being ready to justify everything with the comparison

	15-09-2005 09:30									#12
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Iraqi civilians are being killed, by the same people who were killing them when Saddam was in power.

No...the Baathists are a neo-fascist political party.
Al Qaeda is a cult of religious fanatics.

	15-09-2005 10:39									#13
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Do we know it was al-Qaeda?

	15-09-2005 14:18									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Brundlefly Listen to any news report where they are able to identify who the bomber was and provide a bio.

They are typically not impoverished in a financial sense, only in a moral sense.

	15-09-2005 17:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Do we know it was al-Qaeda?

It's a multi-faction cluster f**k. There are ex-Baathists and ex-military targetting the provisional government or anything which by the slightest logic might be considered connected, there are Sunnis attacking Shia, Shia attacking Sunnis, and al-Qaeda attacking pretty much everybody.

	15-09-2005 17:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander They are typically not impoverished in a financial sense, only in a moral sense.

How do you come to this conclusion?

Certainly Palestinian suicide bombers are able to be manipulated by Hamas because they dont have any leadership concerned about providing education, health, and welfare. The 9/11 suicide crew's activities prior to 9/11 were subsidized entirely by al-Qaeda. Did you think it came out of their own pocket?


How does someone become fertile ground for moral poverty? Most likely when they've lost hope in their country, their government, and their ability to change their situation.

You seem to be suggesting that the suicide bombers are nothing more than a bunch of bored upper-middle class college students..

	15-09-2005 17:55									#17
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"You seem to be suggesting that the suicide bombers are nothing more than a bunch of bored upper-middle class college students"

....well now that you mention it I did see a docu on CBC about pal suicide bombers, and even though the film was focussing on females, it was surprising that they tended to come from the educated class.

Poverty does not make one a killer.

Ideology makes one a killer.

	15-09-2005 18:59									#18
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hopelessness makes one a killer

and you don't have to be piss poor to be hopeless. but it helps a lot.

	15-09-2005 19:11									#19
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I heard something funny the other day.

The Beeb had a report on the US' latest hopeless attempt to "crush" the insurgency. The reporter said that the new message was "foreign fighters must get out of Iraq!!!!"

Oh the irony...

	15-09-2005 19:44									#20
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Iraqi civilians are being killed, by the same people who were killing them when Saddam was in power.

US soldiers, no doubt

	15-09-2005 20:04									#21
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Another 31 dead today from another string of bombings.

These ones appeared to mainly target policemen, as opposed to yesterday's, which seemed to be going after the general public.

	15-09-2005 20:06									#22
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It's a mess in Iraq, and it looks more and more like a civil war.

	15-09-2005 20:22									#23
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There have been a number of attacks that don't fit the norm - if you can call it that. These are attacks on Shia civilians from the group headed by Sadr. This is the group allied to the Sunni resistance. The motivation of these attacks is interesting. Why would the Sunni resistance, or even al-Qaeda bomb their own allies? Perhaps someone is trying to provoke a split in the ranks of the anti-US coalition. Just a thought.

	15-09-2005 21:20									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "You seem to be suggesting that the suicide bombers are nothing more than a bunch of bored upper-middle class college students" ....well now that you mention it I did see a docu on CBC about pal suicide bombers, and even though the film was focussing on females, it was surprising that they tended to come from the educated class. Poverty does not make one a killer. Ideology makes one a killer.

For those living in poverty, poverty shapes their ideology. For those not in poverty, the plight of their countrymen living in poverty shapes their ideology.

	15-09-2005 23:45									#25
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"the plight of their countrymen living in poverty shapes their ideology."

I never heard any Islamist suicide bomber group use the economic condition of their 'brothers' as a primary motivation. I have heard plenty of religious and some political motivations, but I've never seen economic empowerment listed as a primary motivation.

Economic empowerment/liberation is a goal that makes sense for university educated western elites, but I've rarely seen the actual bombing groups use it.

I guess we all see what we want to see.

The moment I see a suicide bombing campaign for improved labour conditions, less working hours, unionization rights, limiting the competetion of foreign multinationals, or any other Socialist goal, I will adopt your view.

But I suspect I won't. The Islamic extremists of the sort behind the Beslan massacre are not interested in Socialism or improving anyones economic condition, they are interested in religious goals, and political goals insofar as they are relgious, and of course simple revenge.

No matter how hard you try to 'claim' them as products of imperialist capitalist racist oppression, or look past their medieval'surface' to find those Marxist 'material conditions' that your university education tells you must surely be motivating them 'deep down', you just won't. Underneath their medieval surface motivations are just MORE medieval motivations. They don't operate within the same ideological framework that you are AT ALL.

(forgive the caps)

	16-09-2005 03:19									#26
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	16-09-2005 04:11									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "the plight of their countrymen living in poverty shapes their ideology." I never heard any Islamist suicide bomber group use the economic condition of their 'brothers' as a primary motivation. I have heard plenty of religious and some political motivations, but I've never seen economic empowerment listed as a primary motivation. Economic empowerment/liberation is a goal that makes sense for university educated western elites, but I've rarely seen the actual bombing groups use it. I guess we all see what we want to see. The moment I see a suicide bombing campaign for improved labour conditions, less working hours, unionization rights, limiting the competetion of foreign multinationals, or any other Socialist goal, I will adopt your view. But I suspect I won't. The Islamic extremists of the sort behind the Beslan massacre are not interested in Socialism or improving anyones economic condition, they are interested in religious goals, and political goals insofar as they are relgious, and of course simple revenge. No matter how hard you try to 'claim' them as products of imperialist capitalist racist oppression, or look past their medieval'surface' to find those Marxist 'material conditions' that your university education tells you must surely be motivating them 'deep down', you just won't. Underneath their medieval surface motivations are just MORE medieval motivations. They don't operate within the same ideological framework that you are AT ALL. (forgive the caps)

You have to read between the lines. Their direct reasons for doing bombings are political and religious. Consequently they have something to do with the economical situation of Iraq. Politics are about power, but power is maintained by either oppressing the people or taking care of those people in such a way that they support you all the way. Many Iraqi people don't find the Americans or any other group other than the one they are supporting to be of much help to their economical situation or other problems. Therefore extremist or other factions in Iraq have enough support from malcontent Iraqis. The extremists know that these bombings hurt, especially psychologically and it helps a long way to get them into power, so they can pursue their own goals which are mainly to help their ideology adherents and followers

Religion is mixed in that complicated battlefield but as we all know using the religion wildcard is mostly another method of controlling the country. Unfortunately most of the times it doesn't help much to improve the situation, since it's mainly because of these fanatics that Iraq is plunging into a bottomless pit of suffering

	16-09-2005 08:13									#28
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"Their direct reasons for doing bombings are political and religious. (insert huge anti-essentialist assumptions here) Consequently they have something to do with the economical situation of Iraq"

that is a very political assertion based on a certain view of history, culture, politics and economics created in modern universities.

The extent and import of this connection are certainly not viewed the same way across the political spectrum, especially outside the Academy.

I, and I think many other westerners, do not share this view.

I mean, did you think I was unaware of what you are saying?

It is the same theory I hear parroted over and over again at this unversity, and it's a view based ultimately on dialectical materialist and marxist-feminist readings of history. It may not seem like it in the hothouse environment of the modern educational institution, but those are still considered highly controversial interpretations of human behaviour by many people.