15-09-2005 03:46									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If it is no longer manufactured and has been superseceded by newer, better technologies, it is obsolete.

It is more prone to failure because things such as harddrives are far more likely to crash when they're older than when they're newer.

quote: Originally posted by laurentius Is it just not possible to make a better OS than Win XP to run on my P-M 2.17 Ghz 1536 MB. Is every software engineer in MS as ****ed up as Asher to refer their to-be customers as "clowns"

I don't refer to my would-be customers as clowns unless they demonstrate such baffling behavior as you have.

You were stupid enough to buy a Dell Inspiron behemoth with a Pentium 4, and that didn't even last you a year IIRC. And now you're all upset that if you want the new OS you need new hardware.

Around the exact same time I made my purchase of a ThinkPad T40 and I still use it constantly to this day with no complaints.

Instead of being all up in arms that you can't install a state-of-the-art operating system on obsolete, deprecated hardware; perhaps you should use your time to make more sound purchasing decisions in the future to waste less of your money.

quote: Am I ****ing supposed to take up 3000 eur loan every 3 years to buy a new laptop just to ****ing run the newest shitty Windows. Thats just pathetic and insulting..

Windows XP is still supported, feel free to use that. I don't want MS wasting resources on making a far more restricted OS so everyone could theoretically switch (though most won't).

The idea is to take advantage of the new technologies and phase in the new operating system on new PCs. It is not meant to be something you'd put on your mom's Pentium III 800 or your older laptop.

FWIW, it would likely run absolutely fine on your laptop with the specs you've listed. Just don't expect to play lots of intense media applications on it (which is what MS is assuming with their specs).

	15-09-2005 03:58									#32
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Asher If it is no longer manufactured and has been superseceded by newer, better technologies, it is obsolete. It is more prone to failure because things such as harddrives are far more likely to crash when they're older than when they're newer.

Bah, the current hardware is good enough to run for 10+ years on normal use without physically dying out. Some people still run C-64 without any problems. Todays hardware is just as good as tomorrow in this aspect.

quote: Why is it pathetic and insulting? You were stupid enough to buy a Dell Inspiron behemoth, and that didn't even last you a year IIRC. And now you're all upset that if you want the new OS you need new hardware.

Whoa Mr. wiseass talking out from his ass again. I killed my laptop on my own thank you. There was no MS upgrade-fairy to spill that cognac on it, it was just me, drunk. Anyway this new "behemot" has been working splendidly and still pwns anything IBM/Lenovo can come up with in the same price segment.

quote: Windows XP is still supported, feel free to use that. I don't want MS wasting resources on making a far more restricted OS so everyone could theoretically switch (though most won't). The idea is to take advantage of the new technologies and phase in the new operating system on new PCs. It is not meant to be something you'd put on your mom's Pentium III 800 or your older laptop. FWIW, it would likely run absolutely fine on your laptop with the specs you've listed. Just don't expect to play lots of intense media applications on it (which is what MS is assuming with their specs).

You and me both know that the idea is to keep the economy running by forcing consumers to buy newer hardware as to "run and take full advantage" of the latest crappy, unoptimized code MS comes up with. I can alredy play 1080 HD without any problems and play BF2 on a kilo-resolution while running WCG on backround. The software I cant run better be giving me orgasms before I see any need to switch. I just dont like that attitude you and MS represent. Its arrogant, self sufficient and categorically flawed.

	15-09-2005 03:59									#33
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Who said it's an either or question? Why can't I use both LINUX and Windows, like I do now? I have a LAMP setup for practicing PHP and MySQL and a Windows box for everything else.

	15-09-2005 04:08									#34
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by laurentius Bah, the current hardware is good enough to run for 10+ years on normal use without physically dying out. Some people still run C-64 without any problems. Todays hardware is just as good as tomorrow in this aspect.

Older hardware is more prone to dying, just like old cars are more prone to dying. Please don't even try to argue this point.

quote: Whoa Mr. wiseass talking out from his ass again. I killed my laptop on my own thank you. There was no MS upgrade-fairy to spill that cognac on it, it was just me, drunk. Anyway this new "behemot" has been working splendidly and still pwns anything IBM/Lenovo can come up with in the same price segment.

If I spilled cognac on my ThinkPad it'd likely be okay. It's designed to be resistant to spills -- the water actually funnels out through the vent and doesn't touch the electronics on the insides.

It's little things like that which is why ThinkPads are where it's at for laptops. They're the industry standard for quality, and after you go through a few more Dells, maybe you'll see the light.

quote: You and me both know that the idea is to keep the economy running by forcing consumers to buy newer hardware as to "run and take full advantage" of the latest crappy, unoptimized code MS comes up with. I can alredy play 1080 HD without any problems and play BF2 on a kilo-resolution while running WCG on backround.

Then you don't need to upgrade your OS or hardware, do you?

Problem solved.

quote: I just dont like that attitude you and MS represent. Its arrogant, self sufficient and categorically flawed.

If we had things your way, we'd design Windows Vista to work on 386s as well. I know people who use those still.

Since old hardware stops being produced, the market for that hardware's software continually shrinks. You're advocating MS cut corners and spend billions of dollars in additional R&D, service, and support costs to support a userbase who are less likely to buy the software in the first place (people with old hardware are not "early adopters" usually) and a userbase that will only continue to shrink.

That makes no sense from a business perspective (not cost effective) nor from a technology geek perspective (why should the current hardware users sacrifice standardized feature because some kid from Finland wants to run the newest OS on his old plastic Dell laptop that will die soon anyway?

	15-09-2005 04:13									#35
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Paul Thurrot has been running Windows Vista builds on a Pentium M 1.87GHz with 512MB RAM without issue...



I think some drama queens here should look at the real world before posting more.

	15-09-2005 04:26									#36
	Got spare money?

You know we two have different approach to these things. I believe that that the average 3.5 year update cycle of consumer PC and 3 year cycle on corporation level respectively is just too damn short. You dont see people changing cars every 3 years do you? In mobile phones 2.5 years might be okay but they cost about one third of average PC(1500 eur).

I do understand that the industrys got to keep running but are they so short of innovations that they got to keep innovating the wheel all over again every time just more heavier than the last time. Have the geniouses really been unable to come up with truely scalable system?

It seems like theres something wrong in the profounding philosophy of the OS developing industry. Instead of adding new features whenever the hardware allows them to be added from an economic point of view it would be more constructive to optimize the code(ala consoles) and design the new code to be run on todays more than sufficient hardware.

Nowadays the only rational reason for a hardware upgrade is a release of a new Game, MS Word, or a new version of Windows. Its really dead end from my point of view.

Oh and the amount of cognac spilled was a "huge" I doubt even your thinkpad would have survived such a flood of booze.

Last edited by laurentius on 15-09-2005 at 04:32

	15-09-2005 04:29									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The problem here is you don't understand that there are two supported products: Windows XP and Windows Vista.

If MS were to stop supporting XP when Vista came out, you would be totally right.

But since they'll continue to support both, your argument simply holds no water. If you want the new state-of-the-art OS, you get new start-of-the-art hardware. Don't want to upgrade every "3 years"? Don't have to. Use XP for a while, and then whenever you get a new PC, you can upgrade to Vista.

Nobody is putting a gun to your head saying you gotta buy Vista for your existing computers the day it's released.

	15-09-2005 04:35									#38
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I wasent aware of the fact they'll support the two. I really hope you are right about this . The point is that we've all seen what happened to Win98. Were on MS' mercy on when that same fate awaits XP.

Surely you agree that bloating software is in nobodys interest.

	15-09-2005 04:38									#39
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by laurentius I really hope you are right. The point is that we've all seen what happened to Win98. Were on MS' mercy on when that same fate awaits XP.

Windows 98 is still supported up through June 30, 2006 for all security issues and for phone support...

MS didn't even stop distributing Windows 98SE until sometime in 2003/2004.

quote: Surely you agree that bloating software is in nobodys interest.

If the additions are useless, I agree.

	15-09-2005 04:45									#40
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http://winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_editions.asp

Here's a good site that breaks down all the different features in all the different versions.

Starter edition is third-world only

	15-09-2005 04:45									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What asher fails to mention is the version paul is running is a scaled down version. Also asher, Dell computers are sold over the phone and on the internet. 7 versions of windows presents a problem for both.

From the phone side, logistics are a huge concern at dell. How long does each call last, what percentage of inbound calls result in sales, etc etc.

This presents a problem in two ways. Firstly, calls are going to take longer. Right now, there are two windows choices, and it takes long enough to explain the differences between them to a customer who doesn't really listen and is going to be bitter later about not having all the features they want, which gives rise to the second problem. Returns.

Over the internet, the same thing happens. People are dumb and don't take the time to inform themselves about the different options, often just going for what costs the least, costs the most, or is in the middle, with out actually familiarizing themselves with the differences. Can you guess what happens then? Customer service calls, which cost Dell $, and returns, which cost dell more money.

So yeah, when dell is only paying a few bucks for windows now, home or pro, I think a cost benefit analysis would show that 7 versions of windows isn't worth it.

	15-09-2005 04:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak What asher fails to mention is the version paul is running is a scaled down version. Also asher, Dell computers are sold over the phone and on the internet. 7 versions of windows presents a problem for both.

Dell doesn't have to sell all 7 if they don't want to...

And he's not running a "scaled down version", he's running the full thing. Windows Vista has 3 graphical modes, and he is running the most basic. The full-out avalon builds don't even have video hardware that can run it yet.

quote: This presents a problem in two ways. Firstly, calls are going to take longer.

You need to think a bit more.

Dell doesn't have to sell all of the versions of Windows.

If they want to keep it simple, they can offer Home and Professional edition...or just Professional if they want...

	15-09-2005 05:07									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm trying to decide if I'm enough of a "technology influencer" to warrant shelling out the extra cash for the Ultimate edition. On the one hand, I'm a researcher. But on the other hand, I'm a very lazy and/or miserly researcher.

	15-09-2005 05:57									#44
	Re: Re: Will you use Vista or Switch to Linux? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Asher Versus Linux with infinite different versions and zero standardizations?

Tee hee.

Is this FUD or an outright lie?

	15-09-2005 05:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If it is no longer manufactured and has been superseceded by newer, better technologies, it is obsolete.

By this definition anything you can buy from a retailer is obsolete.

	15-09-2005 06:00									#46
	Re: Re: Re: Will you use Vista or Switch to Linux? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Tee hee. Is this FUD or an outright lie?

It's neither. When you allow users to recompile the kernel and everything else about the OS, you got yourself infinite versions.

You also don't have a "standard" Linux configuration or install, a la Windows (and if you try to lecture me about LSB, it shows just how little you really know)

	15-09-2005 06:01									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger By this definition anything you can buy from a retailer is obsolete.

yeah...except not?

Some things certainly are.

	15-09-2005 08:29									#48
	Suffering from ads?

Present day PCs already have more power than needed for non graphics intensive office use. Unless Powerpoint is going to be replaced by full motion video, the office market would be better served by an increase in reliability and ease of use than an increase in processing power.

	15-09-2005 08:53									#49
	Remove this text

XP is good enough for me - with the degeneration of PC gaming, I doubt I'm going to need to update this within the next 5 years. cIV MP all the way.

	15-09-2005 09:07									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'll see what Leopard has to offer.

	15-09-2005 09:40									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Verto I'll see what Leopard has to offer.

They'll change all the theming back to brushed metal, and that alone will account for 500 new features because of all of the dialogs with the new theme.

Only $129.99/year.

	15-09-2005 10:05									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Leopard? Is that Apple's 10.4.x?

	15-09-2005 12:24									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I expect that Win2000 will be the last windows I ever run on my desktop. I do have a pirate copy of WinXP on a CD that a friend gave me, so maybe I'll install it next time windows dies.

New versions of windows are mostly fluff. I mean I use Fluxbox in Linux, I don't need any fluff!

	15-09-2005 13:44									#54
	Tired of ads?

Windows is a lot easier / better to use if you do like I do and remain firmly behind the bleeding edge. This means generally buying slightly older technology for considerably less money. Always do your research and any flaws should have already been discovered, allowing you to put together a nice affordable and stable marriage of OS & System. Buy your games the same way, from the bargain bin, fully patched and well known entities that you know will run well on your slightly older machine.

	15-09-2005 17:11									#55
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I'll probably be stuck using it at work pretty soon (gonna hurt, though, unless they upgrade my laptop. XP is bad enough with all the other stuff they run on it), but I'm still using 2000 at home (dual boot with Suse). Never saw a compelling reason to upgrade to XP, don't see one to upgrade to Vista.

--"Not only can they include an uber-cheap windows Starter Edition on the $300-ish PCs"

Actually, probably not. Starter Edition is their replacement for the cut-down version of XP they're currently only selling in places like Africa. The extreme limitations on it (remember the whole three programs running thing?) make it completely unsuitable for the US consumer market, even on the el-cheapo boxes.

Still, it's about the same number of versions as XP. The only real problem with the Vista versioning is the big difference in capabilities. Some of the stuff they're excluding from the consumer oriented ones is going to hurt the family tech who's supporting his mother across town remotely. And I can see a lot of corporate execs being ticked at not being able to do the full multimedia thing and insisting on ultimate instead of the corporate editions.

THe other big problem is the timing of the release, at least for those who went with the subscription-style licensing. That's going to tick off a lot of companies, unless MS lets them upgrade despite it being outside the contracted time period.

--"Protected media streams that run in isolation from the rest of the system to prevent tampering."

Ones that will require a new monitor to display, thanks to the HDCP requirements. The "security" here is all about letting the media companies control what you buy, which is why I'm against it.

--"It seems like theres something wrong in the profounding philosophy of the OS developing industry."

I have to agree. I get kind of annoyed with the constant flood of eye-candy focused bells and whistles when they haven't yet got their existing features to work properly.
But that's how the whole software market is. Featuritis and time-to-market is everything.

Wraith
"Yes, to a first approximation."
-- Econominics professor Bernard Saffran, after being asked if money could buy happiness.

	15-09-2005 17:37									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Asher They'll change all the theming back to brushed metal, and that alone will account for 500 new features because of all of the dialogs with the new theme. Only $129.99/year.

No, I'd say they are going away from brushed metal, now that Microsoft is so keen on it

	15-09-2005 17:38									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Windows

	15-09-2005 17:39									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Leopard? Is that Apple's 10.4.x?

OS X 10.5

	15-09-2005 17:43									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Verto No, I'd say they are going away from brushed metal, now that Microsoft is so keen on it

When has Microsoft used brushed metal?

	15-09-2005 22:27									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Wraith Never saw a compelling reason to upgrade to XP, don't see one to upgrade to Vista.

I tend to agree, so far~ I haven't seen a single feature in Vista that's a must have for me. A lot of the work is under-the-hood, and I'm impressed by it, but... nothing I need right away.

quote: Still, it's about the same number of versions as XP. The only real problem with the Vista versioning is the big difference in capabilities.

XP Starter
XP Home
XP Professional
XP Professional (Enterprise Licensing)

That's only 4 Windows Clients, with two of them differing only in licensing method.

Vista has 7, at least. Honestly, it just strikes me as them trying to dilute the brand too much. XP was supposed to be the beginning of a one-size-fits-all type Windows (merging the two distinct lines of 9x/Me with NT/2k), and that was great~ I didn't mind having two distinct client versions there, one for corporate, and one for personal use. However, when they started coming up with things like Tablet Edition and Media Center Edition, I started getting a bit cranky...

Yes, I know that not everyone needs every feature; however, part of the reason why OS X has so many rave reviews is that they have only ONE version to sell, and everybody gets it, no matter what machine they have. Call it a lack of choice, but it definitely seems that the mass market consumer doesn't really want that much choice. (Yes, the rhetoric is nice, but remember what we said about sheep in politics? how they don't really give a damn about anything? marketing and computing? not that different, unfortunately--and that's just one reason why Linux, for all its choice, hasn't caught fire like everyone wants: choice is scary.)

quote: Ones that will require a new monitor to display, thanks to the HDCP requirements. The "security" here is all about letting the media companies control what you buy, which is why I'm against it.

This is one of the biggest things I don't like about Vista. What's worse, it'll be appearing in OS X 10.5 Leopard, too.

quote: "It seems like theres something wrong in the profounding philosophy of the OS developing industry." I have to agree. I get kind of annoyed with the constant flood of eye-candy focused bells and whistles when they haven't yet got their existing features to work properly. But that's how the whole software market is. Featuritis and time-to-market is everything.

QFT.