16-09-2005 23:59									#31
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South Korea has only had a full democracy that even remotely resembles a western-style nation since 1997, 1992 if you're feeling generous. Even now, however, elections have more to do with personality and buying votes with favors (Pres. NOH won by appealing to the young by shamelessly whoring himself out to the youth's tendency towards a mild xenophobia, as well as offering the location of the new capital to the central Ch'ungch'ong provinces) than it does with actual policies.

Taiwan's only had it since the KMT's stranglehold was busted in the mid-90s. Both nations appeared in the 1950's, so the had 40 years to develop.


Now that I've done research, I've found that Singapore appeared in 1965, not the mid-1970s that I'd thought. (Mixed it up with Bangladesh. :duncecap: )

So... I retract the time argument.

	17-09-2005 00:01									#32
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I still stand by my statement, however, that Asian democracies tend to start off as just Western institutions bolted onto East Asian sensibilities and structures, which is why there's such a disconnect between how Western ones behave, and how the Eastern ones still tend to be more authoritarian than expected.

	17-09-2005 00:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed South Korea has only had a full democracy that even remotely resembles a western-style nation since 1997, 1992 if you're feeling generous. Even now, however, elections have more to do with personality and buying votes with favors

In other words, they have a full-fleged Western democracy.

	17-09-2005 00:06									#34
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Oh, bleh.

I still believe a "Western-style" democracy is one that used to exist, as in... people voting on issues, taking them seriously, kinda like how I imagne that they still might be in Europe, not the Spring-show sound-bytte style one we have in the states.

	17-09-2005 00:09									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed I still believe a "Western-style" democracy is one that used to exist, as in... people voting on issues.

People voting on issues. When did that ever happen.

	17-09-2005 00:10									#36
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A man can dream, can't he, Tingkai?

	17-09-2005 08:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi You once claimed that a Taiwanese election was rigged based upon the accusations of the opposing party. Is this the same recollection that couldn't recall that a Shanghai university had a speciallized history department? Or is it the one that posted a quickly googled webpage exonerating the Dali Llama as evidence of his guilt? On several occasions, I've noticed that you tend to believe that whatever you say or think is true despite lack of or contrary evidence. I see that line of thinking here a lot in China. This basing fact on what you can and can't recall is disturbingly, well, childlike in thought.

This comes from the person who claimed that he was refused admittance to medicine because he poked holes in the dean's theory of memory.



I am sure your memory is very good, and your recall is flawless.

	17-09-2005 12:40									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Other members of the old dictator's family have been appointed to high level positions throughout the government.

Supporting evidence? Other than the current prime minister (Lee Hsien Loong), who else is there?

	17-09-2005 13:50									#39
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quote: Not really when it comes to city-states. Look at Hong Kong. Hong Kong has never had a dictatorship, colonial rule was close, but still no dictatorship. Hong Kong has a free society, with a free press. And Hong Kong has done better than Singapore.

I am not sure about this, but AFAIK, Hong Kong has had a far better starting point than Singapore, being more developed, and better located. Isn't that so?

quote: Taiwan and South Korea have achieved a hell of a lot more than Singapore, and those countries have had to maintain large standing armies.

They did achieve a lot, but I AFAIK, Singapore has a rather large standing army, as well, isn't it so? I am also not sure how are their achievements significantly larger.

quote: LKY is extremely over rated.

Perhaps. My knowledge in the realm of SE asia is limited, so I am trying to get as much as possible.

	17-09-2005 14:15									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Hong Kong has never had a dictatorship, colonial rule was close, but still no dictatorship. Hong Kong has a free society, with a free press. And Hong Kong has done better than Singapore.

Colonial rule was virtually a dictatorship. The governer reported to nobody except the Prime Minister of the UK. The government was organised for repressing the locals. You need to look no further than the riots of 1967.

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Taiwan and South Korea have achieved a hell of a lot more than Singapore, and those countries have had to maintain large standing armies.

They are also much bigger and populous. FWIW, the governments of Taiwan, RoK and Singapore are very similar to each other.

	17-09-2005 14:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by phoenixcager Supporting evidence? Other than the current prime minister (Lee Hsien Loong), who else is there?

You mean other than Hsien Loong's wife being the head of the government investment fund, or sons becoming brigadier generals in the Singaporean military. But of course, they all got these positions on merit.

	17-09-2005 14:38									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Az I am not sure about this, but AFAIK, Hong Kong has had a far better starting point than Singapore, being more developed, and better located. Isn't that so?

Depends on which starting point is chosen. At the end of WWII, both cities are at about the same position.

Both are strategically located in terms of trade.

quote: Originally posted by Az They did achieve a lot, but I AFAIK, Singapore has a rather large standing army, as well, isn't it so? I am also not sure how are their achievements significantly larger.

Singapore spends half of what Taiwan spends on its military and a quarter of what South Korea spends.

My point is just that Singapore does not face any enemies, unlike South Korea and Taiwan.

	17-09-2005 14:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Colonial rule was virtually a dictatorship. The governer reported to nobody except the Prime Minister of the UK. The government was organised for repressing the locals. You need to look no further than the riots of 1967.

I said that the colonial government was close to a dictatorship, but there some significant differences.

The colonial governor was kept in check by London and the British government was kept in check by the British voters and by courts in Hong Kong and Britain. The same cannot be said of Singapore.

After 1967, the colonial government was also aware that it needed to keep the local population happy, or risk more riots. This led to more input into the HK government through the Exco and legco. The British had the final say, but it was not completely arbitrary and local people had a say. This is one of the reasons Hong Kong has been successful. As well, the development of Chinese civil servants also gave locals more of a voice. By no means was it democratic, any more than it is now, but it was also not a dictatorship.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They are also much bigger and populous. FWIW, the governments of Taiwan, RoK and Singapore are very similar to each other.

Taiwan and South Korea have multiparty democracy. Neither country is a one-party state. The same cannot be said of Singapore.

	17-09-2005 14:48									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai My point is just that Singapore does not face any enemies, unlike South Korea and Taiwan.

Unless you count the non-ethnic Chinese states of Indonesia and Malaysia which border it- Singapore separated from Malaysia in 1965, because of Malay fears of Singaporean domination, and is still vulnerable through its water supply:

quote: The Board aims to ensure sustainable water supply for Singapore by diversifying supply sources, and managing demand. To optimise Singapore's water supply, about half of Singapore's total land area is set aside as water catchment to harness water supply. The Board also imports water from neighbouring Johor, Malaysia to supplement the local water resources. These two sources form Singapore's first two National Taps.

http://www.pub.gov.sg/about_us/Prof...wofDrainage.php


Indonesia isn't entirely happy about Singapore engrossing itself at the cost of Indonesian sand and coral:

quote: Australian September 6, 2002 SINGAPORE By: Eric Ellis YOU can see them as your flight descends into Singapore's Changi airport -- dozens of massive sand dredgers lying inactive at anchor in Singapore harbour. Owned by companies from Belgium, The Netherlands, Russia and South Korea, the dredgers have stopped churning the Indonesian seabed around Singapore because of a nasty dispute with Jakarta. It's been called the Sand War and parties in Jakarta, Singapore and various European capitals are seeking to draw a line on it lest it career out of hand. Sand dredging is big business, a A$10 billion global market, and tiny Singapore is the world's most active market as it seeks to make itself bigger. Singapore is also struggling out of a recession and would like to keep tourist dollars inside the republic, instead of leaking to the neighbouring Riau archipelago, where the beaches and resorts are better.

http://www.singapore-window.org/sw02/020906au.htm

	17-09-2005 14:58									#45
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As far as I know, Malaysia has never invaded or threatened to invade Singapore, and neither has Indonesia.

The three countries have their disputes, but it is far different from mainland China - Taiwan and North and South Korea where wars have been fought.

	17-09-2005 15:05									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You mean other than Hsien Loong's wife being the head of the government investment fund, or sons becoming brigadier generals in the Singaporean military. But of course, they all got these positions on merit.

Ho Ching, Lee Hsien Loong's 2nd wife (his first wife passed on), was already doing pretty well before he married her.

Singapore has a large number of reservist/ retired Brigadier Generals (many of whom were Armed Forces scholars), and it is not difficult to see how Lee Hsien Loong and his brother rose to the rank, with or without the alleged "family influence".

I still don't see how this amounts to what you originally called members of the family "being (placed in) high level positions throughout the government."

Anyway, what's the big deal in all this? The U.S. has its Kennedys and Bushes.

	17-09-2005 15:32									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai As far as I know, Malaysia has never invaded or threatened to invade Singapore, and neither has Indonesia. The three countries have their disputes, but it is far different from mainland China - Taiwan and North and South Korea where wars have been fought.

Well, we live and learn:

quote: Phase 1: 7/31/1962 A Federation of Malaysia, to include the Federation of Malaya, Singapore, and the British territories of Sarawak, Sabah, and Brunei on the predominantly Indonesian island of Borneo, was planned for 1963. President Sukarno of Indonesia was suspicious of plans for retaining British bases after federation. At the same time he was also in quest of prestige to avoid crises with his Army and with Indonesian Communists. Phase 2: 1/1963 As part of Indonesia's policy of "confrontation" Malaysia was termed hostile by Indonesia after two divisions were reported to have volunteered for training to assist a Brunei revolt. Phase 3: 1/12/1963 Small Indonesian bands infiltrated Sarawak. The Pan-Malay Manila Accord was signed in August, but the Federation came into being in September before a UN on-site survey was completed. The latter confirmed local support for the Federation, but Sukarno promptly affirmed his intention to "crush Malaysia" and extend military action to the mainland. In September 1964 a UNSC resolution following a Malaysian complaint was vetoed by the USSR. Early 1965 saw political turmoil preceding the August separation of Singapore from the Federation. Mainland incursions ceased, though Borneo raids continued. Settled: 10/1/1965 The aborted coup in Indonesia ended the confrontation, and hostilities were formally terminated at Bangkok on June 1 1966.

http://web.mit.edu/cascon/cases/case_imc.html

quote: Indonesia's opposition to the 1963 establishment of the Federation of Malaysia presented the only known external threat to Singapore since Japanese occupation. After September 1964, Indonesia discontinued military operations targeting Singapore. In March 1965, however, a Singapore infantry battalion deployed on the southern coast of Johor was involved in fighting against a small Indonesian force that was conducting guerrilla operations in the vicinity of Kota Tinggi. Indonesia supported Singapore's separation from Malaysia in 1965 and used diplomatic and economic incentives in an unsuccessful effort to encourage the Lee administration to sever its defense ties with Malaysia and Britain.

http://reference.allrefer.com/count...ngapore159.html

	17-09-2005 16:19									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This comes from the person who claimed that he was refused admittance to medicine because he poked holes in the dean's theory of memory.

This is an arguement? I don't believe that I made that claim. You drew that conclusion. I merely stated that I pointed out holes in his theory. The fact that you are bringing this up after...what was that...5 years ago demonstrates how truly bothers you. I said that then as well. It seems that you have some insecurity issues to deal with because this has nothing to do with what has been discussed.

quote: I am sure your memory is very good, and your recall is flawless.

I wasn't arguing whether recall your is flawless. I was arguing about your faulty reasoning based on what you don't know. The crux of your arguments in that post and others was that it must be true because you can't remember ever hearing of a counter. What does your little logical flaw dictionary call this?

Sadly, I will not get a proper response from you. Time and again you have failed to directly challenge my arguments. Just look above: You first bring something up that has nothing to do with the issue at all. Then you try to sidetrack the issue with another moot point. Frankly, I don't think you are capable of arguing correctly at all. You've spent all your time with your nose in that logical flaw dictionary that you can't think any other way. Now since I've exposed this, the best response I can hope to get from you is insults or simply covering your ears and pretending it didn't happen.

How am I able to counter you with such ease? As I said, I see this line of reasoning often among CCP members and other people brainwashed here in China to believe some of the most absurd things based on nothing but propaganda and their own insecurity. I deal with this daily. Or used to, since I don't teach full-time anymore.

	17-09-2005 18:13									#49
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molly bloom - Don't forget one of the highlights of the Indonesian 'Confrontation' or Konfrontasi - the MacDonald House bombing in Singapore
http://www.reference.com/browse/wik...d_House_bombing
http://www.answers.com/topic/indone...a-confrontation

	17-09-2005 23:01									#50
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Well, we live and learn:

What's the point of your post? It shows no threat against Singapore. All your posts show is conflict between Malaysia and Indonesia.

	17-09-2005 23:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by phoenixcager Ho Ching, Lee Hsien Loong's 2nd wife (his first wife passed on), was already doing pretty well before he married her. Singapore has a large number of reservist/ retired Brigadier Generals (many of whom were Armed Forces scholars), and it is not difficult to see how Lee Hsien Loong and his brother rose to the rank, with or without the alleged "family influence". I still don't see how this amounts to what you originally called members of the family "being (placed in) high level positions throughout the government." Anyway, what's the big deal in all this? The U.S. has its Kennedys and Bushes.

Ho Ching was a minor executive when she got married, no?

While Singapore may have many generals, it is rather odd for someone in their 30s to become a general. But of course the Lee brothers are amazing leaders, eh.

And look up the meaning of nepotism.

As for the Kennedys and the Bushes, those who have achieved political office were elected, not appointed.

Let's also consider the fact that no one in Singapore is allowed to comment on Lee family members being appointed to government jobs unless they want to get sued as has happened to several news organizations. The Lees have muzzled open discussions of their little empire.

	18-09-2005 11:08									#52
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Dictatorship and Democracy are not all that different for the average citizen. While in the US people can complain about Bush, all the complaining from media and people have not had any effect on policy.

	18-09-2005 17:46									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What's the point of your post? It shows no threat against Singapore. All your posts show is conflict between Malaysia and Indonesia.

Do you know, I could have sworn it mentioned Singapore.

Right where it said :

quote: Indonesia's opposition to the 1963 establishment of the Federation of Malaysia presented the only known external threat to Singapore since Japanese occupation.

and then when it said:

quote: After September 1964, Indonesia discontinued military operations targeting Singapore. In March 1965, however, a Singapore infantry battalion deployed on the southern coast of Johor was involved in fighting against a small Indonesian force that was conducting guerrilla operations in the vicinity of Kota Tinggi.

I could be mistaken- clearly here Singapore might mean, oohh, Surinam, Iceland or perhaps Afars and Issas- depending on one's political point of view or the degree of small-mindedness one possesses.

	18-09-2005 22:27									#54
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So? Indonesia had problems with Malaysia at a time when Singapore was part of Malaysia.

At that time there was a minor firefight between Indonesian and Malaysian troops (the latter happened to be Singaporean).

But, your post states: "Indonesia supported Singapore's separation from Malaysia in 1965."

So when Singapore becomes independent, it becomes an friends with Indonesia. Whatever dispute existed between Indonesia and Malaysia no longer applied to Singapore.

Your post shows no threat against the city-state of Singapore.

	19-09-2005 15:19									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Your post shows no threat against the city-state of Singapore.

What on earth do you think a federation is ?


Where do you think Indonesia killed the inhabitants of Singapore in the Macdonald House bombing ?

Oh, I know, Singapore suddenly stopped being the city state of Singapore when it joined in a temporary federation with other ex-colonies- it stopped having a unique culture, language and cuisine and Singaporeans became instant Malaysians.

Really, you can do better than this you know.

http://www2.mha.gov.sg/mha/isd/newisd_earlyyears.html

	19-09-2005 21:36									#56
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ok fine, the Konfrontasi was a threat to Singapore - one need not get talmudical about Singapores status in the Malaysian fed.

Its still hard to see how the Indonesian threat to Singapore, post 1965, matches the threats to South Korea and Taiwan.

Tingkai remains correct in the larger view - LKY's accomplishments are overrated.


Of course since the current govt of China looks to LKY as a model, it will probably be difficult to get a calm assesement of LKY.

	19-09-2005 23:10									#57
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Yup, and I fear that you are right about China looking at Singapore as a model. China would be much better off emulating the Japanese model, a one party state, but with much more freedoms. Of course China won't because of the past.

	19-09-2005 23:12									#58
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China would be better off going democratic communist . . . but I'm biased.

	20-09-2005 01:23									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara China would be better off going democratic communist . . . but I'm biased.

Then theyd get vet spies, AND unbribeble cities - theyd be unbeatable

	20-09-2005 16:42									#60
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Its still hard to see how the Indonesian threat to Singapore, post 1965, matches the threats to South Korea and Taiwan.

Firstly I wasn't being talmudical, nor was I engaging in pilpul or even Jesuitical casuistry. Clearly Tingkai wasn't aware of Indonesia's aggression against Singapore, then attempted a pointless saveface.

Now what kind of threat might Indonesia pose to Singapore ?

quote: Singapore Total Population was 4.24 million in Jun 2004.

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/

Confined to a small citystate, part of whose water supply is derived from another nation.

Indonesia on the other hand has a population of:

quote: 242 million (2005 est.). Indonesia is the fourth most populous nation in the world after China, India and the United States.

http://www.expat.or.id/info/overview.html

Indonesia has a corrupt politically minded military, which has seen combat experience against Singapore and Malaya (oh, sorry, Malaysia...) Irian Jaya and East Timor- as well as Indonesia's own citizens.

Indonesia has seen large scale massacres of Indonesian civilians of ethnic Chinese descent :

quote: Tens of thousands of ethnic Chinese died in the carnage that ripped through Indonesia in the wake of President Suharto's coming to power in 1965.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/as...fic/4312805.stm


There were significant anti-Chinese riots in 1998 too, resulting in extensive looting, property damage, rapes and murders.

Singapore has an ethnic Chinese majority.

Indonesia has shown a blatant disregard for the rule of law, both internally and externally, in its illegal annexation of Irian Jaya and East Timor and suppression of dissident movements.

Perhaps having experienced Indonesia's neighbourliness already, Singapore is simply acting in its own best interests, as the Singaporean military's website points out:

quote: Many people think of Total Defence as a defence strategy or plan that is rolled out only during times of war. But it is more than that. Total Defence is about the different things that we can do everyday in every sector of our society to strengthen our resilience as a nation. When we take National Service seriously, participate in civil emergency exercises, upgrade ourselves and learn new skills, build strong bonds with different races and religions, and feel the pride of being Singaporean, we contribute to Total Defence. Introduced in 1984, the concept of Total Defence was adapted from the experience in Switzerland and Sweden. There are two reasons why we adopted it. First, as a young nation with a small population, we cannot afford to maintain a regular armed forces. Thus, we need to involve every Singaporean to multiply our defence capability. Second, the nature of modern warfare has changed. Wars are no longer limited to the battlefield. Instead, potential aggressors can strike in less obvious, non-military ways. The five elements of Total Defence work together as a comprehensive defence strategy for Singapore.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/ab...nce_policy.html