16-09-2005 12:18									#1
	Probe rating bug question Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

This is very important question to CMNs of ACDG3 game.

In the game rules it is stated, that any infiltration attempt on a faction that runs a probe rating +3 or higher is prohibited. This, in my view a bit lacks clarity in some cases.

After acquiring Pre-Sentient Algorythms, each base of Data Angels receives free Covert Ops Center. This should ensure +2 probe rating for the base, and since DA has +2 probe at the start, the base is +4 probe rating.

Question is:
Does the base rating +4 in this case counts as the +3 or higher as stated in the rules? While units in field may have probe rating +2, bases have then +4 and as opposed to units in field, bases cannot be infiltrated, converted and any other probe operations on these bases cannot be conducted? Please note, that the whole faction is on +2 probe rating.

Please respond in timely manner, or grant an extension for Data Angels for the time of resolving this possible problem.
The course of action of DA very seriously depends on the ruling here

Thank you.

	16-09-2005 13:11									#2
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AFAIK, a probe rating of +3 normally grants immunity to mind control, but no other benefits beyond a +2 rating.

	16-09-2005 15:59									#3
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Try it out in scenario editor Mart7x5, if it's about infiltration, then, as CT said it's possible under +3 IIRC.

	16-09-2005 16:26									#4
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probe rating never prevents infiltration,AFAIK

	16-09-2005 20:39									#5
	Re: Probe rating bug question Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by mart7x5 This is very important question to CMNs of ACDG3 game. In the game rules it is stated, that any infiltration attempt on a faction that runs a probe rating +3 or higher is prohibited. This, in my view a bit lacks clarity in some cases.

I thought I as a Spartan would reply here, since this affects us too. I like to believe I am quite unbiased when it comes to interpreting rules however

This is the part of the rules that I assume you are referring to:

quote: It is not allowed to mind control with standard probe teams units or bases of any faction that runs a +3 or higher SE Probe rating.

I think it is quite clear that it is the faction SE probe rating that is referred to here. This can really only be interpreted as the number displayed in the SE screen, and this is not affected by base facility bonuses (even if they are in every base).

It says bases of a faction who .... not bases who .....

Also, it only mentions mind control, not infiltration or any other kind of probe action.

If there is any other way to interpret these rules you will have to explain them to me.

	16-09-2005 22:41									#6
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quote: I think it is quite clear that it is the faction SE probe rating that is referred to here. This can really only be interpreted as the number displayed in the SE screen, and this is not affected by base facility bonuses (even if they are in every base).

Snodasmannen you're wrong here.

A faction which has +1 SE and a covert ops at bases is immune to MC.
Try in scenario editor.

Other SE is also affected by facilities, for example Brood Pit gives +2 to Police and it makes no sense to distinguish this local SE from the factions SE. They sum up.

But it works on units which are outside bases for they don't recieve the +2 PROBE from facilities.

	16-09-2005 22:54									#7
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So summarized for a faction with +2 SE Probe and Covert Ops Centers in every base:
Bases can't be mindcontrolled. Units can. Everything else is still possible as usual - probe rating doesn't make a difference for that.

	16-09-2005 23:04									#8
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Snodasmannen you're wrong here.

I frequently am

But this time I am confused. This is not a question about game mechanics is it? Isn't this a discussion about a special ACDG-specific rule and how it should be applied? The quote I gave was not from the game manual, it was from the ACDG rules thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=117456

I won't quote it again, but if what it says is already embedded in the game mechanics, why is there a special mention of it in the rules thread? It otherwise only covers which exploits are allowed and other exceptions from the normal game mechanics (such as not attacking bases with copters). Why would mart7x5 need to ask the mods to clarify it?

	16-09-2005 23:31									#9
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Funny. I tested it.

Bases are indeed immune to mind control under +1 SE Probe plus a covert ops center. Under any other combination that gives a +3 or higher Probe rating, the probe rollover bug is still present though.

	17-09-2005 00:33									#10
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The Angels have +2 Probe and Covert Ops centers everywhere. If their probe rating had been one less, their bases would be immune to mind control, but as it is, the rollover bug leaves them vulnerable. Therefore, in all PBEM games around here, any combination of effects that brings a base to +3 Probe or higher renders it immune to mind control from other players (except with Algorithmic Enhancement). If the rules say otherwise, they're sloppy.

Mart7x5 is asking about something else, and I believe he is mistaken.

	17-09-2005 01:09									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

So how it comes in scenario editor.

I set up Believers with +1 probe and fundamentalism. They are +3 probe rating now. There is a base of believers and a single scout nearby. When I put for example morganic probe team next to both, I cannot subvert the scout. There is a message informing me, that believing social choices prevent me from this action. But it is still possible to mind control the base. And all of it for +3 probe rating.
-------
It's ok, I forgot I left a covert ops center in that base. it's just rollover bug...

I see the stuff, I think I have the answr now. Thank you.

Last edited by mart7x5 on 17-09-2005 at 01:16

	17-09-2005 09:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory The Angels have +2 Probe and Covert Ops centers everywhere. If their probe rating had been one less, their bases would be immune to mind control, but as it is, the rollover bug leaves them vulnerable. Therefore, in all PBEM games around here, any combination of effects that brings a base to +3 Probe or higher renders it immune to mind control from other players (except with Algorithmic Enhancement). If the rules say otherwise, they're sloppy.

Brilliant, now I also understand, thanks

	20-09-2005 01:47									#13
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Sorry I wasn't able to be on for this, but I've been a bit occupied...

To clarify, it is NOT allowed to mind control any units or bases of a faction that is running +4 PROBE or higher. This is exploitation of a bug and will be punished.

The Data Angels receive an automatic covert ops centre upon discovering pre-sentient algorithms. This places their bases (NOT their units) at +4 probe. Therefore, after the Angels discover pre-sentient algorithms, mind control attempts on any of their bases are not allowed. Their units, however, may still be subverted, as they remain at the standard +2 probe.

With that being said...It is not advised that any faction running +2 probe or higher builds a covert ops centre. This would bring the rollover bug into effect, leaving the base with the centre vulnerable to mind control. Although mind controlling such a base is technically against the rules, it is not expected that the mind controlling faction be aware of the presence of the covert ops centre. Thus any faction that builds a covert ops centre brings the rollover bug upon themselves. This does not apply to the data angels. You know the centres are there. They can't remove them. Don't try it.

Last edited by Method on 20-09-2005 at 02:42