17-09-2005 14:37									#1
	Battle for Beach Boys Inflate your Upload Space

Here be our discussion thread on this matter.


The current situation.

Attachment: 950 bardlands.jpg
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	17-09-2005 14:39									#2
	Terrain in the Bardlands Put an end to popups!

The Blue Circle is where Blood Force Horde is.

The Pink is the Bards.

Defense Bonuses:

If we launch our attack from the mountain (blue square)

Bards get

25% River
50% Hills
25% Fortified

We get:

100% Mountain

If we launch our attack from the hills (red square)

Bards get

50% Hills
25% Fortified

We get:

50% Hills

Attachment: 950bc bardlands terrain.jpg
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	17-09-2005 14:43									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube I think we should first fort our army at Beach Boys 7,4 and wait there for 3 more turns at least for our ACs to heal and the slave workers to complete road at that spot. Then, on the fourth turn, we should move that entire force 2, then 3 next turn and finally 6 on the seventh turn. Beach Boys would then be attacked from hill 2 from Beach Boys and captured on the eighth turn from now. However, if DR rejoin the war effort, then we could move to that mountain near Beach Boys on the sixth turn from now, simultaneously with DR main army and strike a decisive blow to the bards on the seventh turn.

	17-09-2005 15:17									#4
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My thoughts:

We move to the mountain. Then we attack that town.

As I write this I am not sure on the timing of such an attack

I again built the area in the Civ III Editor, and play tested this issue 24 times, using different attack options. Also I went for a strong defense force of:

4 cats
2 horse
3 swords
11 spears

The results varied of course, but basically we took the town in one battle most of the time. There were massive casualties, ie units redlined etc, and at least 8 Regiments will be lost completely.

If we wait in place 3 - 4 turns we will have an extra Vet Ancient Cav, an extra Reg Med Infantry. The Bards would have at least another spear / sword etc....

Which ever option we choose, I believe we need to keep DR far away. As we do not want them charging down our stack. As honourable as we were, there is nothing to say that they will be, for a damaged Horde stack would surely be a juicly target.

If we are to wait, then should we then just wait the extra turns for Keshiks?

Keshiks 4/2/2
Ancient Cavalry 3/2/2
Horse 2/1/2

Medieval Infantry 4/2/1
Swordsmen 3/2/1
Pikewomen 1/3/1
Spearwomen 1/2/1
Archer 2(1)/1/1

Last edited by Paddy the Scot on 17-09-2005 at 15:42

	17-09-2005 16:16									#5
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Attack !!!

	17-09-2005 16:59									#6
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From a chat happening now

ormuzd says:
if euphorica's turn will be skipped three times in a row I'll put a question to emove them completely (admin to retire their civ)

	18-09-2005 03:43									#7
	Remove this text

Simulations be damned Sire! We cannot hope to win in this battle. In fact, even if we win we will lose.

To quote the famous King Pyrrhus of Epirus: "Another such victory and we're ruined."

	18-09-2005 06:52									#8
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Are we suspecting DR to sneak attack, or just being extra cautious? Either way, I see the mountain as the better attack spot, as the defense/attack bonii cancel out If you're thiking to turn right on and attack DR after capturing the city (or even just want less losses), then waiting for keshiks might be wise; that extra def point should save a few regiments

	18-09-2005 08:06									#9
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Not sure either way, but I will remind you that Keshiks do not lose any mp's in hills and mountains...

	18-09-2005 09:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Attack !!!

Nicely put.

	18-09-2005 23:44									#11
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I second that

	19-09-2005 03:34									#12
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Those who favour attack please justify that. A simple word is not enough. Do you fancy losing eight or more units? If so, then explain why.

Also explain why you wish to attack now when you could attack in 5 turns with better odds and more factor 4 attackers.

	19-09-2005 04:41									#13
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Why do you have to ask for justification when someones opinion differs from yours ?

Many members many ideas !

OK heres my ideas on a strategy for a few turns.

the stack wants to be on that mountain no doubt about it, the defense it gives is essential.

we have forest 8 of the mountain ideal for withdrawing units to heal.

we have an army which should pillage evry tile around the Bard town, then assume position back on the mountain,

if we can wittle down bards over a number of turns rather than an all out attack, we stand a good chance of generating more leaders, so we should retain this bards last stand for a while at least.

we might lose one or two elites granted however we may also acquire the necessary materials to build a second army, and perhaps a rushed FP.

there is some discussion of sending a force to relieve AM in the Babylon war, though I would like to see Babylon smashed I believe we should put the Horde first at all times.

if AM becomes endangered greatly by Babylon then yes we should send a relief column with all haste, however for now i think we should focus on farming MGL's and retaining our forces close to home just in case DR is planning any surprises for us!!

DR aside and AM /Babs aside I believe the greatest benefit to the Horde right now is to attempt to farm leaders from beach Boys, and finish chivalry before we send off a expeditionary force.

with no tile improvements the bards will be less able to build fresh troops, granted there upkeep is probably being funded by babylon or LB, but every time we kill one its one less and they will be on the downward slope, unable to reinforce fast enough.

once were into a new government our keshiks can then move in for the kill and finish the bards once and for all.

Now im sure its possible to pick holes in this plan and im sure some will be pointed out, however I feel its the best plan for us right now and would ask why would we want to send troops all around the world at a point where were hoping to gain our UU and switch our government ?

Remember we are playing this for a win, also AM will eventually be an enemy , yes way off in the future maybe but none the less it is a fact.

If AM can hold their own till we have keshiks and new government, which im sure they can then its all good all round. However if they do become hard pressed then i suppose we would then have to consider sending troops sooner.

	19-09-2005 04:59									#14
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My recommendation would be to preserve our veteran horsemen, send these back, and whittle down the rest with Ancient Cavalry, MDI, MDI Army, Elite swordsmen, archers, veteran swordsmen and let the pikemen guard them.
The veteran horsemen needs to be our strategic mobile reserve, that would preempt other teams from ambushing us.

I think a medium intensity siege void of veteran horsemen is the best way to economically farm leaders, preserve our upgradeable forces and build up the Horde through training and force preservation.

	19-09-2005 05:17									#15
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I agree with most part of everything said, but I don't agree with the claim that defensive attributes of the mountain are important to our army.

We have 5 pikes and Bards only have 3 swords, 2 horses and maybe 2-3 archers, so an attack against our army seems unfeasible. Therefore we should not worry about our defensive bonuses, only about Bard defensive bonuses.


Another issue is leader farming. I agree completely with that, but in order for our attacks with elite horses to be effective, we must first destroy or red line all factor 2 defenders in Beach Boys.

I recommend we wait for our ACs to heal (2 more turns), then approach Beach Boys from the side where we wouldn't be attacking over a river (2 more turns) and on the fifth turn we attack. Some of our reinforcements will already be there by that time (3 additional med infs, 1 additional AC and 1 additional pike).

	19-09-2005 15:22									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Blood Force Horde Cavalry

- at Beach Boys 7,4
Red Roughrider (horseman 4/4)
Fire Hoof (horseman 4/4)

"The Black Watch Brigade"

- at Beach Boys 7,4
Paddy Khan's Faithfuls (horseman 4/4)
Chief Chrisius's Maximites - (horseman 4/4)
13th Guards (horseman 4/4)

"The Graysvandir Brigade"

- at Beach Boys 7,4
Brigadier General Ljubes Mjolnir (horseman 4/4)
Col. Rcoutme's Royal Racers (horseman 4/4)
Col. BKWM's Red Dawn (horseman 4/4)
Col. Provo's Shadow of Doubt (horseman 4/4)


-------------------------------

Do we need these units here?

Can they now be sent home? Ready for Upgrade.

	19-09-2005 18:18									#17
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I would actually go for a compromise plan between suggested ideas here. I suggest a probing attack with infantry (MDI regular and veterans, as well as army) and remaining elite AC, and then move the relatively weaker swordsmen, archers, and later healed ACs in line with Ljubes plan alongside our elite horsemen and some pikemen with reinforcements to the southern hill. This way we get both the initial advantage, and can partly attack BB from that hill, and conclude the battle at BB from south, supported by north.


UPDATE:

We should use the MDI Army, MDIs and 2 Pikemen to hold the mountain, and whittle down the BB defenders gradually as the faster cavalry units move towards southern hill. archers can be here as well.

This must be coordinated with:

healed ACs
Reinforcements by road
Werewindles.
elite horsemen
some vetera horses if needed
BATAAR

and attack as Ljube said in 5-6 turns for a full impact, letting the mountain army whittle them "safely" down.

Last edited by Omnistar on 20-09-2005 at 11:42

	20-09-2005 00:26									#18
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Many good points here, one that caught my eye were ljubes comment on how we don't have to fear bard counterattack. Good observation, we still cannot linger just outside their city, their catas will wear down even our pikes. We should move to the hill where we don't have to attack across rivers as soon as possible. It is likely we have enough units to win this in one battle. While picking off one unit at a time would allow for some leader farming it will also give the bards time to abandon their empire completely. No city for us

We can still do a bit of leader farming by saving our elites for attacking 1-defence units or redlined 2- defence units.

	20-09-2005 07:03									#19
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Well, move out Elite Warrior Bataar for a last battle, it may actually work out. AND DO NOT UPGRADE HIM.

	21-09-2005 05:32									#20
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I do not understand why Bards have not built walls

Can anyone explain it?

	21-09-2005 05:52									#21
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limited time and economy ? Possibly limited intelligence, both human intelligence and signal intelligence, as well as ocgnitive intelligence. As Military inteligence and personal intelligence.

	21-09-2005 06:08									#22
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I think Omni got it right.