17-09-2005 20:38									#1
	MY 2188 - Planning & execution thread Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Angels just took 36 hours to post the turn. Morgan are notorious for doing the same.

Prepare to get it tomorrow!

Do we plan a chat-session monday evening? Around 20h (CET)?

	18-09-2005 00:20									#2
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Will we obliterate Enigma Machine if possible?

If we do, we'll get 20 years of sanctions, which is a rather long period.

So if a majority decides to want to obliterate EM, commerce loses all importance for a very long time. In that case I'd suggest we change strategy and begin committing all kinds of atrocities without holding back.

One example could be nerve stapling all our bases and then switching to free market.

If only those solar flares finally kicked in we could do all this unpunished...

	18-09-2005 03:55									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Will we obliterate Enigma Machine if possible?

Yes!
That is, if it's obvious we can't keep it.

However, why free market?
I must admit I NEVER played with free market (but, hey, I never played with fundamentalism too ).
From my point of view, it just gives more money and a lot of trouble with fungi-pops destroying rural infrastructure .
With planned, we have popboom and the industry bonus.

	18-09-2005 04:20									#4
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Wouldn't nerve stapling ALL of our bases lead to massive fungal pops and mind worm hordes? Even more than we would be prepared for? But I agree that, if we choose to obliterate Enigma Machine, we should not bother with worrying about commerce income ever again.

If only we could capture and hold EM. If we could just wait one turn to capture it, we could have the HSA built, and we wouldn't have to worry about having it probed away. But the Angels would probably be able to mobilize some sort of defense by then, unfortunately. Or would they? Hmmm, I wonder...if we could destroy the scout patrol in EM, would that send EM into drone riots, thus stalling the completion of any sort of plasma defender? And even if they did build a plasma defender, we would still have the firepower to take it out, no? And then, as far as planes are concerned, They have, really, only four aircraft at their disposal with which they could attack cities. And if they sacrifice one by landing it in Mart Pact (in order to drop the population when we attack, so we can't use it), then that would make three aircraft that they could use (well, four, once that F-6 in production at Gemka's loft gets completed.

Hmmm, perhaps holding bases won't be possible without more fighters. So...when can we get more fighters? And if we decide to obliterate EM, do we then want to commit to a long-term struggle with the Data Angels, with the immediate military build up which that would entail? Or will we be satisfied with the blow we've done to them and resume our former course?

quote: One example could be nerve stapling all our bases and then switching to free market.

Actually, if we switched to free market we'd have -3 police, precluding any nerve-stapling. But I suppose we could nerve staple before switching to FM, but like I said earlier, that's a lot of ecodamage!

Another thing to keep in mind is that the acquisition of the HSA opens up a slew of possibilities in terms of military adventures, as there would no longer be any need for probe defenders along with invasion forces. We could dust off some of our old Morgania invasion plans, for instance...

And just think, if the two techs that we acquire next turn are PSA and Fusion Power...uh-oh.

	18-09-2005 04:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter If only we could capture and hold EM. If we could just wait one turn to capture it, we could have the HSA built, and we wouldn't have to worry about having it probed away.

QFT!

Btw, I think the reason why mart7x5 started that thread about the probe rollover bug is because they're worrying that we might steal Pre-Sentient Algorithms from them as soon as they have it.

	18-09-2005 04:37									#6
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What I can't figure out is why the Angels took so long to research PSA. You would think that they would have done everything in their power to speed that research along, even if it meant moving sliders. And it's odd how, after researching previous techs so quickly, they could only get PSA in 16 turns. The tech cost must have leapt upward quite a bit after their last researched tech, or perhaps the Angels were getting those other techs via AAs.

Edit: QFT?

	18-09-2005 05:53									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter If only we could capture and hold EM. If we could just wait one turn to capture it, we could have the HSA built, and we wouldn't have to worry about having it probed away.

I don't know whether they can get enough money to MC it back. I know their good probe-rating makes it cheaper but it must still cost a lot of money they don't have (and won't have if we take EM next turn).

That's what I say: IF we manage to send a rover to EM with its last bit of move, we upgrade him full! They could lose several units trying to retake the city. Even if they succeed, that would leave our other units unattacked and ready for the following turn.

In any case, monday is a holiday here. At reception of the turn sunday or monday, it's gonna be paper and pen and one hour of planning!

GOOD OMEN: Just saw this:Spartan Raid

	18-09-2005 12:37									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Will we obliterate Enigma Machine if possible? (...) I'd suggest we change strategy and begin committing all kinds of atrocities without holding back.

What will be the worst case effects of this? I am very afraid of the Hive declaring war on us. In fact, I am very afraid that one of the other factions have managed to bribe them to attack us (what with their 12 noodles in Arcadia).

Also, having a rampaging Planet is not very nice. True it's easy money, but we'll also need to reterraform a whole lot.

So not having had any experience with this kind of atrocity, what are the pros and cons?

	18-09-2005 20:54									#9
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I fear I do not follow. What have atrocities to do with the planet not liking us???

	18-09-2005 21:37									#10
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Atrocities decrease the clean mineral threshhold, just as tree farms increase the clean mineral threshhold.

I believe that a nerve stapling will decrease the clean mineral count by 1. Something like a planet buster attack or an obliteration of a bases decreases the clean mineral count by 5, I think. So...if we are going to nerve staple all of our bases, we better get ready for some major mind worm attacks.

	18-09-2005 22:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac However, why free market? I must admit I NEVER played with free market (but, hey, I never played with fundamentalism too ). From my point of view, it just gives more money and a lot of trouble with fungi-pops destroying rural infrastructure . With planned, we have popboom and the industry bonus.

At the moment it gives some 120 extra labs compared to Planned (presuming we're running Knowledge) and some 90 extra credits.
Popbooming is indeed the biggest bonus of running Planned, but at the moment we've more or less reached the limits of our growth until we build more infrastructure. I think Fort Superiority will be the only base still popbooming next year. When running free market (or police state-green) for a while we could use the extra income to build up our infrastructure and then switch back to Demo-Planned for another popboom phase.

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Hmmm, perhaps holding bases won't be possible without more fighters. So...when can we get more fighters? And if we decide to obliterate EM, do we then want to commit to a long-term struggle with the Data Angels, with the immediate military build up which that would entail? Or will we be satisfied with the blow we've done to them and resume our former course?

Some fighters are en route to the Angel front. We can always build more if we want.(?)
I'm fine with either a short blow or a long-term struggle. The Angel haven't suggested a truce though. But of course we haven't indicated any willingness to sign a truce ourselves, so for all they know we've invaded them to destroy them. Do we want to start peace talks?

quote: Actually, if we switched to free market we'd have -3 police, precluding any nerve-stapling. But I suppose we could nerve staple before switching to FM, but like I said earlier

Indeed.

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Edit: QFT?

Quoted for Truth!

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Atrocities decrease the clean mineral threshhold, just as tree farms increase the clean mineral threshhold. I believe that a nerve stapling will decrease the clean mineral count by 1. Something like a planet buster attack or an obliteration of a bases decreases the clean mineral count by 5, I think. So...if we are going to nerve staple all of our bases, we better get ready for some major mind worm attacks.

Planet busting indeed decreases the clean mineral limit by five.
Using nerve gas doesn't seem to have a direct effect on clean minerals. From the stories I've heard everything is fine for a long while. But suddenly when you cross 1000 years of sanctions due to nerve gas or something, Planet goes berzerk.
I haven't heard that base obliteration or nerve stapling pisses off Planet though. Not sure at all though.

	19-09-2005 05:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Hmmm, perhaps holding bases won't be possible without more fighters. So...when can we get more fighters? And if we decide to obliterate EM, do we then want to commit to a long-term struggle with the Data Angels, with the immediate military build up which that would entail? Or will we be satisfied with the blow we've done to them and resume our former course?

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Some fighters are en route to the Angel front. We can always build more if we want.(?) I'm fine with either a short blow or a long-term struggle. The Angel haven't suggested a truce though. But of course we haven't indicated any willingness to sign a truce ourselves, so for all they know we've invaded them to destroy them. Do we want to start peace talks?

I say start getting the diplomacy ball rolling after we've taken engima machine (which I am for as well), even if we can't hold it. Just think of the moral damage done to both the Angles (and the other factions) with such a demonstration of force. The spartan federation as a world power that can take out your captial on a whim (well seemingly anways ).

Its not about your actual strength, but your percieved strength. This is especially true since we are not infiltrated currently (a key point). Thus we can go into the peace negotiations (which WILL happen eventually methinks) with quite a large amount of leverage and demand for some really good terms.

Hehe personally I'm hoping we can get them to submit and become a colonial power but thats just me and its prob not gonna be likely

	19-09-2005 06:44									#13
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quote: Originally posted by wuy3 Its not about your actual strength, but your percieved strength. This is especially true since we are not infiltrated currently (a key point).

Exactly! And personally I'm hoping we can keep it that way.

	19-09-2005 10:10									#14
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LOOK AT THE SAVE
I am just lost for words.
The Angels have saved us a lot of trouble. I'm lost for words.

	19-09-2005 10:18									#15
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It looks like the Angels have performed some major surgery to repel our invasion. They have accomplished our major goals with this operation.

Should we just pull our boys back now?

Attachment: angelselfdestruct.jpg
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	19-09-2005 10:26									#16
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Meanwhile:

• The Gaians have agreed to peace
  
• Zak has researched PSA (should we nip the HSA?) and has moved on the Fusion.
  
• Yang is still truced and has moved most of his Noodles from Arcadia
  
• Fort Soup and Tegea Harbor are drone rioting (oopsie?)
  

	19-09-2005 11:43									#17
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Looks like we scared the s#it out of them, literally. Good.

Now, about withdrawing, do you think can we pull an invasion as it is now, or would it bring little but losses on our side? EDIT: I took a look at the save. It seems our best move now would be to withdraw/relocate the offensive fleet, and bomb them back to medieval times (no interceptors visible inside bases this turn...).

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen [*]The Gaians have agreed to peace

Guess why.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen (should we nip the HSA?)

If we can, we should. The bigger we get, the less perfect our probe defenses, so a boost would be just right at this time.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen [*]Yang is still truced and has moved most of his Noodles from Arcadia

He already tried to pact with us, remember? I think we have him off our back, at least for a while.

	19-09-2005 12:28									#18
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Before I post my impressions on the save:

-- I've got a fungpop around Fort Superiority. Not a problem infrastructurally speaking, FS can still popboom on 2 tiles but one worm and 2 spore launchers came with. I made the CDFs at FS burn the worm and one Sporer. The other is not close to the base so I let him.

Do you want the save?
It provided 40+30=70 extracredits that we sure can use, and the second sporer will provide 30 more.

I'll keep it and post it if you say so.

	19-09-2005 15:04									#19
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GEEEEEEEZ - UUUUUSSS!!!!

Let's look:
-- not only did they destroy the 3 bases in front of our invasion force MartPact (pop 1), Kahlua (7) and EM (13) BUT ALSO Timberland (1) and Geomatrix (4) on the southern coast and Hercules Station (7) and Heaven's Gate (5) on the northern coast!! If Yang can smell blood, he'll send a colony pod and push his weight on their shrinking border.
-- Sanctions: 280 years!
-- Population fell from 87 to 46!! And hunger will kill 3 more when they open!
-- Credit reserves: 146. Income: -15/year.
-- All their units won't get morale boost without Cyborg Factory, they'll need a lot of 'drop-militias' to stop drones and their destroyed Headquarters must do wonders for their efficiency.

Madness! They didn't even fight. I think their motivation to keep on playing must be at an all time low...

Propositions:
-- We build a drop-pod at Fort Sol and found a base on MartPact place. Then, relocation there of air forces and land troops and whooplah...
-- Prototype 3-res and AAA! We need either to upgrade the cruisers to Aegis or to send the fleet waiting at stand-off range.
-- I can't find their F6. Must be flying. If someone wants to destroy 2 crawlers, they are in penetrator's range. (But their F6 in Gemka's Loft will be ready next turn.)

Otherwise: let's get PSA (YAHOOO!!), instabuild HSA without delay and cash the AA to see which wonderful gift we'll get.
And...we are the first military power!

INFRASTRUCTURE:
-- Forest expanded at Fort Liberty/Iaci Base/Sector Cratersouth/Assassin's Redoubt, and kelp at Vladivostok. That's an opening like we like it at the Ministry of Infrastructure!
-- Heat wave at Tegea Harbour. Do we want to build something special to take opportunity? (Bank? Hospital?)
-- Fort Sup and AU are at 13 ecodamage each. Perhaps upgrading a few CDFs to trance for future emergencies?
-- Let's hurry (again) the H-Forest at AU!

Proposed former moves:
- North of Fort Sup: assign to defungus
- South of AU (2 formers): mine the rocky tile at Ironholm
- East of Sparta Command: go help mine 63,21
- South-East of GH: Forest (tile is rainy-road)
- Seaformer at Minas Tirith: Tidal Harness
- West of Vladivostok: Forest (tile is rainy-road)
- Seaformer at VV: mining platform
- Fort Buster (3 formers, 1 already ready): defungus
- West of Messena (3 formers): I propose they forest the farm-tile and we MM a Tree farm with the 2 crawlers on harvesting farm nuts.
- North-west of Messena: go help 55,7 defungus

And I post the save. No need to spit on extracredits! Just find the most efficient way to burn the second spore launcher!

Attachment: acdg3-sparta-2188-fungpop.sav
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	19-09-2005 22:54									#20
	Re: MY 2188 - Planning & execution thread Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by vishniac Do we plan a chat-session monday evening? Around 20h (CET)?

I'm in the chatroom at the moment.

	19-09-2005 23:19									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen LOOK AT THE SAVE I am just lost for words. The Angels have saved us a lot of trouble. I'm lost for words.

I guess a bigger demonstration on the importance of perceived strength isn't possible!

	20-09-2005 00:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 He already tried to pact with us, remember?

Nope.

quote: Originally posted by vishniac -- Prototype 3-res and AAA! We need either to upgrade the cruisers to Aegis or to send the fleet waiting at stand-off range.

Now that we have Orbital Spaceflight (the alien artifact gave it us, for those not in the chat), we could prototype plasma armour while retaining the ability to crawler-hurry. Also building a planet buster would make us lose that ability though.

	20-09-2005 01:56									#23
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Transcript can be found here:
http://www2.onyx.nu/pb/chatter/chatter.php
(the top one)

	20-09-2005 01:57									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Pre-sentient Algorithms acquired from Zakharov.

• Orbital Spaceflight acquired from the alien artifact in Argos.
  
• Two Angel crawlers, formers and drop militia bombed.
  
• Probe team keeps following the Uni CP.

Attachment: acdg3-sparta-2188mid.zip
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	20-09-2005 02:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Nope.

Yang asked us to pact with him against Morgan not long ago. We said "no", he said "war", we took a base, he was happy to accept peace. Nothing like the AI making sensible moves, eh?

Should he approach us like this again, we can either pact with Yang (I really like the idea, I said so many times.), or we go and kill the Hive for good (and just keep rolling afterwards).

	20-09-2005 04:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Yang asked us to pact with him against Morgan not long ago. We said "no", he said "war", we took a base, he was happy to accept peace. Nothing like the AI making sensible moves, eh?

Ow that sucks.

• Is Olympus Academy ok to build the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm? The problem I see is that if the Morganites built a planet buster, they could destroy six secret projects.
  
• The units in Defiance Freehold were activated again, meaning they must have flown an air unit near it. If you want, we could let the two cruisers nearby try to spot the air unit, and if in range let the F-6 in Assassin's Redoubt deal with it.
  
• Snoddasmannen and I discussed the possibility that Morgan might research Fusion Power and that we might have to probe it from him. For that reason the Disco Volante and Tiger's Claw (some probes could hop on it if necessary) are sailing towards the general direction of Whohabitat.
  
• Remaining spore launcher near FS flamed for 30 credits.
  
• Our IoD explored some further. It ended its turn in the fungus. You never know the Angels are patrolling with their Snake chopper.
  
• Vijayanagaran rover moved into Iaci Base for repairs.
  
• F-8 flown to Defiance Freehold. Hive noodle spotted on the way. (wtf, where is he going?)
  
• Mind worm flamed for 20 credits in the Ironholm hunting arena.
  
  
  
  
• Gythian sea former starts a tidal harness.
  
• Tomcat-OA1 near GH starts a forest.
  
• New VV Sea formers starts on a tidal harness.
  
• One former moved to the rocky tile near Ironholm for road building.
  
• Some defungicizing started near Fort Soup. Idem near Fort Buster.
  
• Vishniac, while I like your former orders, due to running Power this turn, we have this one-turn opportunity with many of our formers having 2 movement points. May I suggest making you use of this by moving a couple of formers to an empty tile and start a road on it in this same turn? We'd get a couple roads at one less former turn than usual this way.
  Formers we could use this way are:
  - the former west of AU
  - two formers SE & E-NE of SC1
  - the former NW of VV
  - some formers near Messena could move onto fungus and start removing it at once.

quote: - West of Messena (3 formers): I propose they forest the farm-tile and we MM a Tree farm with the 2 crawlers on harvesting farm nuts.

Forestation sounds good to me. Though with some crawlers being sucked in for the HSA, I doubt Messena can get a tree farm anytime soon (and of course, we can launch sky hydroponics labs now ).

Attachment: acdg3-sparta-2188mid2.zip
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	20-09-2005 05:05									#27
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What the hell?!!!!! Have the Angels lost their minds?! I mean, I could kind of understand destroying Mart Pact, Kahlua, and maybe even EM, but why Heaven's Gate and Hercules Station? Won't that just make it harder for them to defend against the Hive? Or was the Hive kicking their butts already? Well then...I must say...wow, it looks like the Gaians will be one of the strongest factions now. Coming all the way up from the bottom, bravo!

Now I suggest we target kodycryptor. Can we get enough fighters there in order to hold the base against air attacks? We could get the transport there in two turns.

How about we rush that hybrid forest in AU.

Hmmmm, is there any way we could get more fighters in laconia? Or maybe we could build some AAA plasma sentinels? It just seems like the Morganites could pull something on us, especially if they get fusion before us.

Do we have any plan for dealing with the Hive Luftwaffe in Mendelev College? Other than hoping and praying against an assault, I mean...

	20-09-2005 05:21									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter How about we rush that hybrid forest in AU.

Rushing won't be necessary if we switch back to Knowledge SE. In fact, we'll waste lots of minerals. To prevent, we could switch lots of citizens to thinkers. Same for FS & FL. Mineral production is stopped during drone riots, but energy production isn't. So we could switch many citizens to thinker.

quote: Hmmmm, is there any way we could get more fighters in laconia? Or maybe we could build some AAA plasma sentinels? It just seems like the Morganites could pull something on us, especially if they get fusion before us.

We could build some in Fort Buster.

	20-09-2005 06:31									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter What the hell?!!!!! Have the Angels lost their minds?!

Come to think of it, it could be considered in-character. ;-)

War is war; destruction is destruction. You think this is obvious.
But war is not destruction, it is victory. To achieve victory,
simply appear to give the opponent what he wants and
he will go away, or join you in your quest for additional power.
^
^ -- Datatech Sinder Roze
^ "Information Burns"

	20-09-2005 07:21									#30
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• Did the major thinker switch in AU, FS & FL.
  
• Hunter-Seeker Algorithm under coding in Olympus Academy.
  
• Did a whole bunch of crawler and worker rearranging to do the best with the crawlers still left in Laconia.
  
• Switched back to Knowledge.
  
• Set bases who finished production to crawlers or formers unless anyone has other suggestions.

Attachment: acdg3-sparta-2188mid3.zip
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