18-09-2005 16:11									#1
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I started a game in EU2 as Bulgaria (edited the scenario files so that I can start as Bulgaria)

I am not sure how well I am doing so far. I am in 1457 and so far only managed to take Dobridja and Rumalia from the OE. I took control of Macedonia several times but when negotiating peace with the OE i don't have the optin to ask for that province (I guess that is because this their capital).
So my first question would be: is it possible to get a province that is the capital of a country.
The other thing that is not quite clear for me is how do i conquer countries. I have an idea how to do it by diplomacy although in my game my afforts to Diploannex Serbia have failed so far.
My next questions are: in your experince how much bigger than the target country (number of provinces and military) should I be in order to successfuly diploanex a country. And how do I conquer a country by war?

	18-09-2005 21:09									#2
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1.) You can't get a province with a capital in it without annexing the whole country. And then, as you probably know, you'll need the rest of the country taken in another war first. But how did you get the Ottoman capital in Macedonia? It's not supposed to be there, I suspect your modding must have altered more than just the availability of Bulgaria. BTW, why modding it in? You got the way to play as them explained in the other thread, what went wrong?

2.) To conquer contries, you must occopy their provinces. Then you can ask for some of them(you'll seldom have enough victory points to ask for all of them) in return of peace. Usually you can only be certain of their acceptance if you ask for maximum 50% of your VP value, the exceptance being 99 and 100%. Only when you have conquered a one province minor(f.ex. OE after some wars of yours?), you can military annex a country. For diplomatic annexation, you must have a vassal for +10 years(preferably 20-30, never less than 15 usually), be in an alliance with it, have +190 in relations and share a land border with them(straits are treated like land borders). Also keep in mind that your king's diplomatic value vs. your target's will affect.

For your lasts questions(except the one(s) I answered above), the size is not very important if you wait 30 years, then you'll almost certainly succeed, but it's hard to get a country to become a vassal militarily if it's bigger than you, except if you have some luck/is very skilled. It's possible though. But to get a vassal by dilomacy, try getting some treaties, alliance is a must of course and try to be militarily supreme. Exactly how big you must be vs. your target I don't know.

	18-09-2005 22:07									#3
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I had to modify the files because after i released Bulgaria it was missing in the list of countries when I loaded the save game.
The Ottoman capital was in Macedonia by default (Adrianopolis). There are only two provinces in the Southern part of the Balkan peninsula. Macedonia (OE capital) and Thrace (Byzantium capital).

Serbia have been my vassals for 10-15 years. I should wait some more I guess.

I have one more question. It seems to me that I am doing really bad as far as income is concerned. I have income of less than 100 ducats per anum. Is this normal for a country with three provinces only and ~60k population.

	18-09-2005 22:12									#4
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One more question. If i have controll of all provincess of a country (100% VP) do I have 100% chance to annex them or they can refuse to be annexed (like they do in diploannexing).

	18-09-2005 22:28									#5
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If OE has their capital in Macedonia and not in western Anatolia, there's something wrong. And yes, do wait some time with Serbia.

Your income is fine, you're not big and you are positioned in a fairly rich part of the world. But how big is your army? And are you finding your military at 100% during peace? If so, it would be a good idea to lower it to 50% in peace time(if you don't have revolt risk >0 that is). Your army should not be above the supply limit if you can afford not to. In a war against OE, you might want to forget that for a while, but not too long.

As for your second question: If it's a one province minor, you are almost certain to get acceptance, if not they are allied to a powerful power who also is in the war against you. But you do also get 100% if you occupy all of a multi provicial enemy's provinces, and them you can't annex them. You are in a good position though, and can demand anything as long as you're not over 100% and get their acceptance. But also here can you get into problems if you are in a war with a powerful ally of your target.

	18-09-2005 22:49									#6
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OE's capital being in Adrianopol is hstoricaly accurate. The capital was there before they captured Constantinople.
BTW there is an event in the scenario files to change the capital to Constantinople if OE conquers Byzantium.

	18-09-2005 23:09									#7
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Yeah, they should have moved to Thrace after that event.

	19-09-2005 00:08									#8
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Yes but it was Bulgaria who conquered Byzantium in my game
If the Turks had managed to capture it before me then the event was going to be triggered.

My army is ~40k men. Supportable size is 11k. I also inherited a fleet of 20 ships from my annexation of Byzantium. I have disbanded the galleys though because I don't need such a big navy at this point.

Another thing about my game is that my research is auful. I am currently researching 3-rd level techs and some of them are going to be ready after more than 50 years. This seems very strange. I remember that when I started the research they were going to be ready sooner. I have only changed government settings to reduce the research cost not to increase it but still it is awfull. This realy sucks because I think that research is the only way to accuire tech. I cannot steal or trade tech right?

Last edited by Sir Og on 20-09-2005 at 01:35

	19-09-2005 00:20									#9
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No tech stealing or trading. But the reason you have such probelms might be two things:

1.) You are too early in the game to research more. What year is it?
2.) You might have a rampant inflation, that hurts among other things research badly.

	19-09-2005 00:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og OE's capital being in Adrianopol is hstoricaly accurate. The capital was there before they captured Constantinople. BTW there is an event in the scenario files to change the capital to Constantinople if OE conquers Byzantium.

They get an option when they capture Constantinople. Either they keep it in Adrianopol and get nothing or they move it to Constantinople and get two provences changed to Turkish culture four provences converted to Islam and a follow up event which opens a COT in Constantinople.

	20-09-2005 01:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai 2.) To conquer contries, you must occopy their provinces. Then you can ask for some of them(you'll seldom have enough victory points to ask for all of them) in return of peace. Usually you can only be certain of their acceptance if you ask for maximum 50% of your VP value, the exceptance being 99 and 100%. Only when you have conquered a one province minor(f.ex. OE after some wars of yours?), you can military annex a country.

Does this mean that in order to annex by force a country the target country needs to own/control only one province (the capital) before the declaration of war.
This seems rather stupid IMO.

	20-09-2005 02:10									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og Does this mean that in order to annex by force a country the target country needs to own/control only one province (the capital) before the declaration of war. This seems rather stupid IMO.

How many times was a country of any size completely annexed in a single war in this period?

Note, the rule does NOT apply to pagan countries - you can fully annex them no matter how many provinces they have.

	20-09-2005 11:06									#13
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Yeah, I forgot to menation that, thanks LOTM.

	20-09-2005 11:26									#14
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LOTM can you explain then what is the difference between a pagan country and a country that has adopted one of the majour religions. What is the difference between the Aztec empire and some lousy European kingdom that controls the equivalent of two provoncess for example. What is the logic behind being able annex the huge Aztec empire that has sophisticated government administration and not being able to annex a small European kingdom that berely stays together even if you have full control over it.
The only reason for not having so much annexations of whole countries during that period was that rarely the agressor had control over the whole territory or for dyplomatic reasons.

	20-09-2005 12:18									#15
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Ask the developers, not poor LOTM. This has been done to death several times btw, I presume we must wait for EU3 to have thids changed. But I think it will be, in Paradox's later game Victoria the rule is 3 provinces. But there is a reason for this rule: Historically, few of the countries in the old world was totally conquered in one bit, that was the pagan "countries" of the new world's "privilege".

	20-09-2005 13:07									#16
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I asked LOTM because he seems to like the current model and is finding it historically accurate. I pointed in my previous post why I don't like the model (I am going to have to work with it however)

	20-09-2005 14:12									#17
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It's not just Christians but any of the old world religions that can avoid the turbo annex. Pagans are alone in that dubious honor. As time goes on pagans tend to convert to other religions so it is best to hurry up if your goal is to conquor an empire. The African pagans get random events which allow them to convert to Islam while any pagan can be forced to convert as part of a war treaty. That is a stupid thing to do though because if you convert a pagan provence then they take on your state culture and religion.

That makes conquoring pagans so worth while.

	21-09-2005 11:24									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin They get an option when they capture Constantinople. Either they keep it in Adrianopol and get nothing or they move it to Constantinople and get two provences changed to Turkish culture four provences converted to Islam and a follow up event which opens a COT in Constantinople.

Thatīs wrong. In the standard game the capital of the OE is at Bursa, not Adrianople. Bursa in located in western anatolia, on the other side of the dardanelles.

I donīt want to argue about the historical correctness, but in the vanilla EU2 it is that way and we all like to know why itīs located in Macedonia in this game... The reason why Paradox didnīt put the cap in Mac is for gameplay. With Bursa as throne city, the OE might lose its European holdings and still become a great power in Asia. With Mac, they need to be stripped of their heartlands to lose Europe...

	21-09-2005 19:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og I asked LOTM because he seems to like the current model and is finding it historically accurate. I pointed in my previous post why I don't like the model (I am going to have to work with it however)

reason 1 - game balance - this is supposed to be a game about europe conquering the world, not european nations devouring each other and becoming blobs. (note the name) the rule pushes you in that direction
reason 2 - accuracy, in the macro sense. In this period european nations destroyed entire pagan states. destroying a european state of any size was less common, and usually happened in stages (see Poland)
3. accuracy in the micro sense - look at what hapened to the Aztec state. despite its relative sophistication, it just collapsed. The incas resisted a bit longer, but essentially were swallowed whole. empires that lacked literacy (as the new world peoples other than the Aztecs or Mayas did) or that had religions easily manipulated by outsiders, were simply not all that resilienent.


problems with the Paradox solution -
1. this should be expressed in gameplay, not in an arbitrary rule. For ex make nationalism and BB points so much higher if i force annex an non-pagan multi prov state - so I can try it, and take the consequences.
2. should old world pagans be treated like new world pagans for these purposes?