19-09-2005 09:55									#1
	Evil Plan I Remove this text

'bout time I posted one, here goes.

The background


We have met CDZ. Their placement is south of us forming a triangle between the three civs in the continent. What does that mean? Each team has an equal shot in terms of distance to attack any of the other two. What do we know right now? That CDZ is close to getting HBR, and with that, Mounted Warriors, one of the best early-game units. CDZ is known to be a highly competitive and likely warmongerish team, with no probably qualms to attack any of the other two civs in the continent to assure them dominance in this part of the world. In a nutshell, they are definitely a bigger threat to us than CBR.

Given CDZ's UU, and their research into getting it, there leaves little room for doubt that they intend to use their MW against either CBR or us. Their first option is a lightning strike with a few units as soon as they can build them hoping to catch one of us unprepared. The likely target would be CBR as their defenses would be weaker than ours and would get no GA benefits from being attacked by CDZ. Their other option is a more powerful later attack by a larger Stack-o'-Doom and maybe with the additional benefit of a non-despotic government to aid them in their GA. In this case, it is not unreasonable to think we would be the targets considering they likely consider us a bigger threat than CBR. That is not to say we would not be targeted for an early strike, however.

First thing is first, we must prepare for war. Talking with nye on IRC we both reached the conclusion that long-term peace will be well near impossible to maintain given the temptation of CDZ to use their UU to best effect early on. We will have IW shortly and with it, Swordsmen. A Swordsman, Enkidu defense will be hard to crack. CBR might not get so lucky though and they will definitely be at the mercy of CDZ should they go for an early strike against them.

The Evil Plan

We need to get CBR on our side, diplomatically speaking. On our side in case CDZ goes against us, and on our side merely for the sake of them not siding with CDZ since CDZ might well try and feed them crap about us being the big threat bla bla bla. We need the both of us to be prepared to withstand a CDZ attack and find ways in which we will be able to assist the other in war. We will need to maintain a common diplomatic front against CDZ, not making it obvious (obviously!... i.e. a secret alliance) but a certain agreement to avoid vital information (such as maps) or resources (such as techs) to reach CDZ's hands.

What's the big problem with this? We really do not know just how competent CBR might be as an ally. We suspect they might be rather erratic and unstable, and that instability would mean we have to constantly keep tabs on what they're doing, something that they might not like. Nevertheless we MUST out-do CDZ in the "friendly neighbor" department. If CDZ and CBR ally against us, we might very well be screwed... for good.

As to how to withstand a CDZ attack, we'd have to have a good scout screen to give an adequate early warning of an attack on either of us, and a way to quickly move forces to the frontlines. That said, I wouldn't mind CBR getting rattled a bit, perhaps losing a couple of cities but us winning in the end. That would leave us the dominant power in the continent, and CBR a ruined long-term wreck.

What's the downside of this? It's a passive plan. It puts us and CBR in a purely reactionary role to CDZ's ambitions. That does not mean it will fail, far from it, merely that when and how things happen will not be decided by us.

And you all know how much I hate that, so, here's the REAL Evil Plan:

So-Incredibly-Evil-Plan-You-All-Will-Think-I-Need-Psychiatric-Help

It's a long shot and it depends on just how much we can befriend CBR and how much they can trust us. The idea is to lure CDZ into an attack against us, by using CBR as a fake ally. How would this work? CBR and us would be allies. we would build up a military force capable of defeating any CDZ attack against us, and to be able to follow it up with an attack on CDZ's core itself, therefore wiping them out and leaving us with full control of the continent.

During this time CBR works with CDZ into an alliance with them against us. At the last moment as the Mounted Warriors are well on their way (and knowing where and when they will attack, plus their strength), the tables turn and we gang-bang CDZ with their pants down. The alternative is if CDZ makes open insinuations to us about both of us attacking CBR and splitting the land. Highly unlikely but they might very well not want to get involved in a war against Enkidus just yet and place their bets on getting SoZ or something. In this case it'd be us turning around at the last moment.

The long shot isn't so much making this happen. It's getting CBR on the bandwagon. But if we could pull it off, it would be absolutely brilliant and far and away the most surefire way to getting rid of CDZ. With CDZ gone and given CBR's crappy building skills, we'd be well on our way at getting continental dominance.

So, please comment on these crazy ideas. All input is more than welcome.

-MZ

	19-09-2005 10:08									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Transcript of the IRC chat between me and nye where most of this was first discussed:

quote: [20:59] [nothereeither] your opinion, should we trade techs with cdz? [20:59] [MasterZen] eaceandlove4everdood: [21:00] [MasterZen] depneds on what CDZ has to offer [21:00] [nothereeither] the wheel, most likely [21:00] [nothereeither] if we give them bw [21:00] [N35t0r] we should be able to check via tech-costs, right? [21:00] [nothereeither] yes, once we meet [21:00] [N35t0r] (once we meet htem) [21:01] [MasterZen] I'll leave the pros/cons on tech dealing to you people [21:01] [nothereeither] it is very delicate [21:01] [nothereeither] a lot of the team wants to go for soz [21:01] [N35t0r] pros: we get tech con: they get tech :crazy: [21:01] [nothereeither] if we bungle, cdz has mw's before we can complete it [21:02] [MasterZen] now, given the relative positions, there's a good chance CBZ might come after us first [21:02] [nothereeither] do we want to speed up mw's and other muil tech for cdz, at all? [21:02] [MasterZen] nope [21:02] [MasterZen] that should be a big no-no [21:02] [nothereeither] agreed [21:02] [nothereeither] agree about cdz could go for either as well [21:03] [nothereeither] were i their generalissimo, i would go for #2 first, and then clean up #3 [21:03] [nothereeither] once they break the biggest threat, the lesser is their ***** [21:04] [nothereeither] by how cbr has settled, we will be the target [21:04] [MasterZen] we need to get a gov't tech ASAP [21:04] [MasterZen] and an offensive military [21:04] [nothereeither] we will get swords, soon enough [21:05] [nothereeither] that will allow us to defend ourselves [21:05] [MasterZen] horses would be good, they are the best MW killers [21:05] [nothereeither] but we would be relying on cbr for the govt techs [21:05] [MasterZen] all we have to do is coerce them into allying with us and not them [21:05] [nothereeither] we could floow cdz to hbr [21:05] [nothereeither] but people want masonry and math for soz [21:06] [nothereeither] mz, if we try to split cbr with them, we will be on the end of a mw rush way before medieval [21:06] [N35t0r] can we tell when a civ starts on a wonder even if we haven't met them? [21:06] [nothereeither] only if they are not prebuilding, nestor [21:06] [MasterZen] we don't have to be obvious allies [21:07] [nothereeither] how do you picture it, mz? [21:07] [N35t0r] ah, right [21:07] [MasterZen] well, we might end up agreeing to a MPP after all [21:07] [MasterZen] make it secret, be friendly on the outside to CDZ [21:08] [MasterZen] have a good scout screen to spot any SoD on their side [21:08] [nothereeither] ahh [21:08] [nothereeither] [MasterZen] all we have to do is coerce them into allying with us and not them [21:08] [MasterZen] have a good offensive reserve to wipe out said stacks, have CBR also have some form of military [21:08] [nothereeither] them is cbr, not cdz [21:08] [MasterZen] ah yeah [21:09] [MasterZen] should have made it more explicit [21:09] [nothereeither] i agree. [21:09] [nothereeither] we have two coices by the way i see it [21:09] [MasterZen] I'll post the very first EVIL PLAN(tm) later tonight [21:09] [nothereeither] peace for a long time, or... [21:10] [nothereeither] join cbr to kill cdz [21:10] [nothereeither] i don't know that we can trust cbr for war [21:10] [nothereeither] evil plan = cool [21:10] [MasterZen] they'll only be trusted if they realize they might be on the receiving end of a major butt **** [21:10] [MasterZen] in which case they won't have much choice [21:11] [nothereeither] not that. i mean erratic, not competent [21:11] [MasterZen] I wouldn't mind having CBR get a wee bit mangled in such a war [21:11] [nothereeither] imagine ptw isdg if we were to have had to face gca with cfc and no cdg [21:12] [MasterZen] think of the 30-years war, they could be Germany to our Sweden [21:12] [nothereeither] it would great under only one circumstance... [21:12] [nothereeither] cdz invades cbr and gets mauled, but is winning [21:13] [MasterZen] this is definitely a more difficult endeavour, if anything because we are facing a likely more capable opponent and equally-incompetent allies like before [21:13] [nothereeither] we hit cdz core [21:13] [nothereeither] [MasterZen] this is definitely a more difficult endeavour, if anything because we are facing a likely more capable opponent and equally-incompetent allies like before [21:13] [nothereeither] agreed [21:13] [MasterZen] look the key things are: [21:13] [MasterZen] 1) NOT get caughted unprepared (read: we need to build up a military asap) [21:14] [MasterZen] 2) NOT do it alone (read: get CBR on our side) [21:14] [MasterZen] if both can be done, I think we have reasonable chances of emerging victorious [21:14] [nothereeither] i see it tyour way [21:15] [nothereeither] however, not going nuts on mil [21:15] [nothereeither] it will all fal into place with good building [21:15] [MasterZen] not nuts, but defintely havieng something to counter a sudden 4-8 MW strike which I have no doubt CDZ might be contemplating [21:16] [nothereeither] agree [21:16] [MasterZen] CDZ is not stupid, they'll try and hit as soon as they can [21:16] [MasterZen] the only downside to that strategy is that they might have to endure a despotic GA, but if the reward is continental dominance, I'm sure they'll think about doing it anyway [21:16] [nothereeither] yes, if they put themselves in our shoes [21:16] [MasterZen] I know I would [21:17] [nothereeither] as would i [21:17] [nothereeither] hbr is cheap to get to [21:18] [nothereeither] but so is iw, for us... mw's attacking vs swords defending and ca'ing... interesting [21:18] [MasterZen] well, MWs have retreats [21:18] [nothereeither] hell, an enk stands an even chance of killing an mw [21:18] [nothereeither] yes, they do [21:18] [MasterZen] that's a big advange [21:19] [nothereeither] that and mobility give cdz the edge [21:19] [MasterZen] unless they are facing an equally mobile adversary [21:19] [nothereeither] imagine what they do the turn we complete soz? [21:19] [MasterZen] invade us? [21:19] [nothereeither] they are way closer to hbr than we, mz [21:20] [nothereeither] in this time they have done the wheel and wc [21:20] [nothereeither] they are on hbr now [21:20] [MasterZen] can't be more obvious what their intention is [21:20] [nothereeither] yes, as soon as we see tech costs we know how deep the **** is [21:21] [MasterZen] this is going to be tricky [21:21] [nothereeither] on;y thing in our favour would be they will have no 2 def unit [21:21] [nothereeither] enks can kill mw's [21:22] [nothereeither] but cbr?... [21:22] [nothereeither] we should copy this chat to be given to cbr... [21:22] [MasterZen] if only we had 4 archers to send their way... [21:22] [nothereeither] too far [21:23] [MasterZen] not if they didn't spot us [21:23] [nothereeither] a 15 tile archer rush would be a thing to see. it would be of mythic proportions [21:23] [MasterZen] we definitely need to warn CBR [21:24] [MasterZen] if they plan a lightning strike, I suspect CBR will be the target, not us [21:24] [nothereeither] together we could prevail against a determined cdz. [21:25] [MasterZen] if they plan a larger SoD attack it will likely fail [21:25] [nothereeither] go it alone... and we are both toast [21:25] [nothereeither] agree, they would go for cbr with quick strike [21:25] [nothereeither] unless... [21:26] [nothereeither] we appear as bigger threat [21:26] [nothereeither] then they will come for us... if they know where to look [21:26] [nothereeither] they found cbr though, so... [21:26] [MasterZen] should we try and convince CBR not to trade maps with them? if they haven't already done so of course [21:27] [nothereeither] hell, yes! [21:27] [nothereeither] why give a map to the panzer divisions? [21:29] [nothereeither] if they have given cdz map, they are dead [21:29] [MasterZen] pretty much [21:29] [nothereeither] unless they have already agreed to carve us up [21:29] [nothereeither] in which case we're dead [21:29] [MasterZen] hmm, you just gave me an idea [21:30] [MasterZen] this might be too elaborte for CBR's tastes but here's a possibilty: [21:30] [MasterZen] what if we get CBR to attempt to have CDZ ally against us [21:30] [nothereeither] go [21:30] * N35t0r has quit IRC (Quit: ) [21:30] [MasterZen] but this is just a deception, CBR would be on our side [21:30] [MasterZen] *boom* megabackstab [21:31] [nothereeither] hmmm [21:31] [MasterZen] we'd know where CDZ has their troops and who they are attacking, we'd know the size of their forces, they'd get royally ****ed [21:32] [MasterZen] it would be too brilliant to be true... [21:32] [nothereeither] it might be worth the gambit, depending on cdz tech when we meet [21:32] [MasterZen] we should discuss the possiblity though [21:33] [nothereeither] yes, i would say it is a good openning move if we cannot have peace [21:33] [MasterZen] CBR and our reputation would be unharmed since it's unlikely there'd be contact with the other continent by then [21:33] [nothereeither] and after this discussion, peace sounds far away and mythical [21:33] [MasterZen] yeah [21:34] [nothereeither] pfft rep. two civs did what they had to to survive the iroquois [21:34] [nothereeither] **** rep! [21:34] [nothereeither] anyone who held that against us would be a moron [21:35] [nothereeither] i'd be willing to get up, wear the details, and do a dance at the UN [21:36] [nothereeither] hmm, maybe a few beer is talking [21:36] [nothereeither] good news... [21:36] [nothereeither] cbr can now build spear [21:37] [nothereeither] we are 2 from swords (with iron) [21:38] [nothereeither] we can have tw in about 10-12 [21:39] [nothereeither] we will likely scout a good chunk of cdz home territory before any 1 tile agreement [21:40] [nothereeither] hard to see much more until we see tech costs after meeting cdz [21:40] [nothereeither] but we might want to decide limitations on discussions [21:40] [nothereeither] no tech trade of mil techs [21:40] [nothereeither] no 1 tile agreement [21:41] [nothereeither] no map trade [21:41] [nothereeither] just what exactly would we want to agree to? [21:42] [MasterZen] lol [21:43] [MasterZen] pretty much nothing [21:43] [nothereeither] peace and everlasting wuvness! [21:43] [MasterZen] it'd be something like your first date: [21:43] [MasterZen] "so...um...hi" [21:43] [MasterZen] "err... hi" [21:43] [MasterZen] "umm...you... want to do something?" [21:44] [MasterZen] "mmm...like what?" [21:44] [MasterZen] "i... dunno...something" [21:44] [MasterZen] "umm...yeah, I guess..." [21:44] [MasterZen] [21:46] [nothereeither] lol

	19-09-2005 10:11									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

That's it. You need help.

As much as it bugs me, I have to agree that we need to ally with the dirty CBRers in order to eliminate CDZ. CDZ no doubt is already planning CBR's demise, or ours if CBR told them about us.

	19-09-2005 10:53									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

O.k., we need more Intel on CDZ's gaming methedology. We need people to go and look over their Splioler threads with a fine tooth comb and present summeries on what they find.

One thing that you need to make sure that you do is NOT register on their site. The reason is they can see who is reading what threads, So, if they start seeing a bunch of poly teammembers checking out the spoiler threads, they will start connecting the dots, somewhat.

E_T

	19-09-2005 12:17									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Perfect plan
Only need to be sure SBR are not tricking us nstead of CDZ

	19-09-2005 14:19									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's a bit like the plan I supposed (only far more detailed)
But I already said I do not like this way of playing...

	19-09-2005 23:25									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hmm.. the only problem I see in MZ's EVIL plan, is that CDZ might not trust CBR with much information, believing them to be incompetent...

	20-09-2005 00:52									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by N35t0r Hmm.. the only problem I see in MZ's EVIL plan, is that CDZ might not trust CBR with much information, believing them to be incompetent...

Very true but at the very least we will get one little bit of information from it: when they will attack. This alone makes it a better alternative than waiting to see when they decide to do so (and who they do it to).

We should just start slow, befriend CBR first, and then do this if the opportunity presents itself.

	20-09-2005 03:26									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Based on UUs alone, they almost have to attack CBR. Our UU is spammy enough to shut down any attack, given enough pickets, and CBR has the Swiss in the next age. I'm thinking they will try to get us to ally against Brazil then hit us with a leo fueled knight army. At least that's how I would gameplan it from their POV.

	20-09-2005 06:59									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And if they want to ally with us against CBR, we could very well do so, and backstab them instead. It's the evil plan in reverse.

	20-09-2005 10:01									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

MZ, your sick and perverted.....It's why I like you so much....

E_T

	20-09-2005 11:45									#12
	Remove this text

It's kind of a wait and see thing, I guess. We should be a bit friendly to sense who likes us better. We then form the alliance and start conquering (taking the appropriate chance to backstab, lie, cheat, and otherwise win should that become available, of course).

I have the perception, though, that CDZ is the bigger threat. I get the feeling that they're smarter players, and would be able to pose a greater threat given any sort of upper hand that might come their way. For these reasons, I feel that they should be our first target, should the opoertunity present itself.

	20-09-2005 18:51									#13
	Tired of ads?

I think we should team up with CDZ and while their forces are out destroying the Brazilians, we strike hard at their core and destroy them. Then we finish what is left of CBR.

All this time we pretend to being friends with CBR.


This is the only plan that will work as it does not depend on anybody else being truthful, just on us being treacherous.

	21-09-2005 01:33									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What if CBR and CDZ compare notes about us? Isn't there a chance that they will connect the dots and see our double cross?

	21-09-2005 03:55									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ljube I think we should team up with CDZ and while their forces are out destroying the Brazilians, we strike hard at their core and destroy them. Then we finish what is left of CBR. All this time we pretend to being friends with CBR. This is the only plan that will work as it does not depend on anybody else being truthful, just on us being treacherous.

do it

	21-09-2005 08:38									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

And they call me the nutcase...

It's a good plan btw.

	21-09-2005 17:21									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmmm. Lets just kill them both.

	21-09-2005 18:23									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ohh if it only were that simple.

	21-09-2005 19:35									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Oh but it is. get CBR to take the brunt of the first CDZ attack, then we sweep in from the north, Kill CDZ, and then we finish CBR off with everything. We would probably end up with a despotic GA, but I would happily give up the GA for a good (and I mean very good) chance of continental hedgemony.

	21-09-2005 19:40									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

the only problem is it won't happen

	21-09-2005 23:42									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

you never know....

	21-09-2005 23:43									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It can happen if we commit to it fully.

	21-09-2005 23:44									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And if they fall for it fully

	22-09-2005 00:16									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The backstab out of alliance seems a pretty common PBEM strategy... I would think that they would be watching for it as soon as the plane was proposed.

I don't necessarily have a better plan. IF we could get the two of them fighting each other we certainly could then pair up with one and finish off the third and then pile into the ally.

I'd rather see our ally/target engaged before we propose cooperation.

It seems like there is a big risk of having the tables turned on us with this (evil) plan.

Golden Bear