20-09-2005 07:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm not arguing the legality of it, but it certainly doesn't speak to the stability of the situation...

You are right there. Iraq is not very stable and sectarian violence keeps going up every month. There were something like 1100 murders in Baghdad alone last month (compared to about 1 per day before the war) and most of that is different ethnic and religous groups fighting each other. Basically the stage is set for a civil war and the only thing stopping it is the presence of foreign soldiers.

The US and the UK will be cutting their forces in half by next summer so that's when things will start to unwind. The Iraqi government doesn't have any forces of its own worth talking about. There is less then one division that is rated combat ready and the Iraqi National Guard was disbanded two months ago due to corruption and insurgent infiltration. The ING's predicesor the Iraqi Civil Defense Corp (ICDC) was disbanded in 2004 for, you guessed it, corruption and insurgent infiltration. The only other Iraqi Security Forces are the local police, however, they are corrupt as hell and as this incident shows many (if not most) of them have outside loyalties they place above their job as a policeman.

	20-09-2005 07:22									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Colon So in other words, the bodies that are supposed to be taking over the country cannot be trusted?

Bingo.

	20-09-2005 07:28									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Colon I'm deaf and blind to comparisons with WW2.

Sorry for the Godwin.

	20-09-2005 13:13									#34
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/4262336.stm

BBC updated their article and is now saying the policemen were working with the militia (I'm assuming they're talking about the Mahdi though there are several different armed militias).

	20-09-2005 13:51									#35
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Apparently the "police" handed them over to the militia so they broke into the prison to demand their wherabouts so they could be rescued.

Seems fair enough

	20-09-2005 14:31									#36
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But the British are "The World's Greatest Peacekeepers TM" with their experience in Northern Ireland!!! What's with this gloves off and guns blazing business???

	20-09-2005 14:34									#37
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we are the best peacekeepers becasue we know when to keep the peace and when to kick arse

	20-09-2005 16:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger we are the best peacekeepers becasue we know when to keep the peace and when to kick arse

Brit attitude

	20-09-2005 16:31									#40
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Freeing two hostages while at the same time getting a strong message across to people getting funny ideas isn't too bad.

	20-09-2005 17:06									#41
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DO you think that the people with the funny ideas really learned anything from this? AFAICS the whole of Iraq sits in "LD" class.

	20-09-2005 17:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove DO you think that the people with the funny ideas really learned anything from this?

Who's to say. I suppose an indicator would be whether they'll attempt taking coalition troops hostage again in the future. Remains to be seen.

	20-09-2005 17:14									#43
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I suspect this stemmed from previous British experience with Iraqi militias and their sympathizers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3023552.stm

quote: Sergeant Tim, as he was known by the local policeman whom he and his five colleagues were training, urged one of the young Iraqi recruits, Abbas Bairphy, to find him a radio. An angry and jeering mob, perhaps some 300-strong, had gathered outside the police station in the southern Iraqi town of Majar al-Kabir, and Sergeant Tim, whose own radio was in a burning vehicle outside, was desperate to contact his superiors for assistance. But there was no radio, a distraught Mr Bairphy told him, shortly before he fled. And no help came. Within two hours, Sergeant Tim and the five other members of the Royal Military Police would be dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3022670.stm

	20-09-2005 18:12									#44
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Personally I was impressed by the restraint shown by the crews of the Warriors that were attacked by the angry mob. That could have been a blood bath. In their shoes I might have driven my vehicle through the mob at the very least.

	20-09-2005 19:35									#45
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From the article:

quote: In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests. "I had good reason to believe that the lives of the soldiers were at risk and troops were sent to the area of Basra near the police station to help ensure their safety by providing a cordon," Brig Lorimer said. [sic] "Later in the day, however, I became more concerned about the safety of the two soldiers after we received information that they had been handed over to militia elements." After troops broke into the police station to confirm the men were not there, they staged a rescue from a house in Basra, said the commanding officer of 12 Mechanised Brigade in Basra. Brig Lorimer added: "It is of deep concern that British soldiers held by the police should then end up being held by the militia. This is unacceptable."

	20-09-2005 21:21									#46
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It's looking increasingly like the Basra police are in the pockets of local militias. It's a different situation to that in Baghdad where the police are being targetted by Sunni insurgents.

	20-09-2005 22:02									#47
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How many Iraqis died?

	20-09-2005 22:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger we are the best peacekeepers becasue we know when to keep the peace and when to kick arse

I need to start saving threads more often.

All of those who defended this idiotic and now farcical war need to be reminded of their stupidity every day.

	20-09-2005 22:25									#49
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Well since you're so vehemently against it, we must be doing something right.

	20-09-2005 22:26									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Well since you're so vehemently against it, we must be doing something right.

Oh good, you turned up. I needed a laugh...

	20-09-2005 22:34									#51
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quote: In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests.

Of course, in order to be "soldiers" they must be in "uniform".

	20-09-2005 22:36									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Vanguard Of course, in order to be "soldiers" they must be in "uniform".

Good point.

unlawfull combatants

	20-09-2005 23:21									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Krill How many Iraqis died?

According to the report I heard, one Iraqi policemen was killed in the firefight between the two SAS soldiers and the police as they were "arrested". No Iraqis were killed in the storming of the police compound, the rescue of the SAS soldiers or the subsequent rioting- though some were injured.

	20-09-2005 23:24									#54
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Who dares wins

	21-09-2005 00:36									#55
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/4264614.stm

BBC confirms the men were undercover SAS and that the Iraqi government repeatedly ordered the both the governor of Basra and the local police to release the British soldiers but they repeatedly refused and instead handed the men over to the Mahdi. The UK had surveillance and saw when the men were moved and ordered a strike shortly there after.

	21-09-2005 00:39									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Vanguard Of course, in order to be "soldiers" they must be in "uniform".

The photograph of them in the first link I posted showed them captured and still in most of their uniforms. It appears they were wearing their uniforms under a dishdasha.

	21-09-2005 00:44									#57
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That's a tricky legal issue. If you wear a uniform under something, are you still in uniform? I think not, because the whole point of being uniformed is to be easily distinguished.

	21-09-2005 00:52									#58
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In any event the SOFA gives the Coalition carte blanche to do just about anything they want even undercover work.

	21-09-2005 05:05									#59
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"Iraq's National Security Adviser Muwafaq al-Rubaie has admitted the country's security forces have been infiltrated by insurgents."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/4266304.stm

Pretty ****ed, the occupiers haven't even left yet and the Iraqi authorithies are already rotten.

	21-09-2005 05:12									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Colon "Iraq's National Security Adviser Muwafaq al-Rubaie has admitted the country's security forces have been infiltrated by insurgents." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/4266304.stm Pretty ****ed, the occupiers haven't even left yet and the Iraqi authorithies are already rotten.

What make you belive that they were clean from the start ? Only a very naive person wolud think that, and thats why it iisn't in a hurry to get the liberation forces out in a hurry.