21-09-2005 08:04									#31
	Re: Opera now free Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ixnay http://www.opera.com/free/ With the major reason not to use it gone, there really is no excuse for people to not try it now.

How dare you get Boris excited over nothing.

	21-09-2005 08:48									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I just checked out Opera 8.5 and I already hate it.

First 30 seconds, two things:

1) When dialog box to remember page passwords comes up, it requires you to use a dialog-box to select an entry from a drop-down -- WHY? It's a huge dialog, too. Makes no sense.
2) It doesn't use the native Windows theme for widgets like buttons and text fields -- wtf?

Top is Opera and Bottom is Firefox.

Attachment: opera.png
This has been downloaded 32 time(s).

	21-09-2005 08:51									#33
	Got spare money?

I'm scratching my head, and wondering what the MAJOR differences are between the two pictures.

What you explained is not shown in the picture, so the visual seems to be irrelevant.

	21-09-2005 08:53									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The top picture is Opera and it's not using the Windows themes and buttons.

The second image is Firefox and is using what the Windows widgets should look like for my theme.

Opera's is inconsistent with the rest of Windows for no reason...

	21-09-2005 08:55									#35
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes -- I read your original explanation of which is which but they both look the same to me except the circles in the Firefox one are a blueish color and the rectangle buttons are a little rounded at the corners.

	21-09-2005 08:56									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Top: Opera 8.5
Middle: Firefox 1.5
Bottom: IE 6.0 SP2

Attachment: ie6.png
This has been downloaded 30 time(s).

	21-09-2005 08:59									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Yes -- I read your original explanation of which is which but they both look the same to me except the circles in the Firefox one are a blueish color and the rectangle buttons are a little rounded at the corners.

The whole point is Opera is using different buttons, text entry fields, etc. than what is standard across the rest of Windows applications. This is a GUI no-no, and it makes no sense to duplicate that code.

Firefox and IE are both smart enough use the Windows widget, and hence, use the same widgets as everyone else.

Opera stupidly ignores that.

	21-09-2005 09:01									#38
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Asher The whole point is Opera is using different buttons, text entry fields, etc. than what is standard across the rest of Windows applications. This is a GUI no-no, and it makes no sense to duplicate that code. Firefox and IE are both smart enough use the Windows widget, and hence, use the same widgets as everyone else. Opera stupidly ignores that.

I see the light now.

	21-09-2005 09:11									#39
	Put an end to popups!

Opera, free you say? Well, that makes it almost worth my while to download.

	21-09-2005 09:28									#40
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Asher I just checked out Opera 8.5 and I already hate it.

Relax

quote: First 30 seconds, two things: 1) When dialog box to remember page passwords comes up, it requires you to use a dialog-box to select an entry from a drop-down -- WHY? It's a huge dialog, too. Makes no sense.

If I understood correctly, you mean the dialog box that pops up the first time you enter password in some page? I don't even remember the options. I think it says "remember for this page only or all pages?". I just press enter.

Next time you go to that page, all you have to do is click the "Wand" button which is positioned somewhere depending on your toolbar configuration, and it automagically enters everything and presses enter - voila, you're logged in.

quote: 2) It doesn't use the native Windows theme for widgets like buttons and text fields -- wtf?

Opera is incredibly skinnable. When you download it, "Opera Standard" skin is active. All you have to do is go to Tools->Appearance and pick "Windows native" or something like that, and your buttons are in default windows style. Simple.

	21-09-2005 09:32									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Asher When dialog box to remember page passwords comes up, it requires you to use a dialog-box to select an entry from a drop-down -- WHY? It's a huge dialog, too. Makes no sense.

Here is how you use it.
http://www.opera.com/support/tutorials/flash/wand/

	21-09-2005 10:00									#42
	Increase Your PM Length

Wow, this is getting pretty religious.

Personally I like Firefox more, because the extensions let me customise the browser to my own preferencesm without getting bloated. All programs should be like this.

Also, it has the best support of Web standards.

Last edited by Urban Ranger on 21-09-2005 at 10:08

	21-09-2005 10:13									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion If I understood correctly, you mean the dialog box that pops up the first time you enter password in some page? I don't even remember the options. I think it says "remember for this page only or all pages?". I just press enter. Next time you go to that page, all you have to do is click the "Wand" button which is positioned somewhere depending on your toolbar configuration, and it automagically enters everything and presses enter - voila, you're logged in.

And Firefox does this better. You have 3 clear buttons to push with the actions they do, rather than an "OK" button with an annoying dropdown which takes way too many clicks to use.

Further, there's no need to hit a stupid "Wand" button (which itself makes no sense, why reference it as Wand and then call it Password Manager too...stupid stupid stupid). In Firefox if you told it to remember your password it'll just fill it out on the page when it loads, you don't need to hit the wand thing first.

quote: Opera is incredibly skinnable. When you download it, "Opera Standard" skin is active. All you have to do is go to Tools->Appearance and pick "Windows native" or something like that, and your buttons are in default windows style. Simple.

Native appearance should be the default -- it looks like a godawful mix of Windows Classic's grey box + HTML by default.

It's little things like this that are why Firefox is a better browser IMO.

Opera's rendering engine is pretty competent and the browser itself may be configurable, but it reminds me of Linux in this regard -- it's very stupidly designed from an end-user perspective. It wasn't until recently that they toned down the default browser configuration that took up like 40% of your screen with stupid bars everywhere that no one used.

They're slowly adopting a more user-friendly browser design from Firefox, but why would you bother with something not as extensible, not as customizable, and with a lesser UI? There was no reason to ever pay money for it, and now that it's free the only reason to use it is to use it and then say "why doesn't it do this like Firefox? Why do I need to click 3 times to have it remember my password, while in Firefox I need to do it once?"

Once Opera gets some competent UI designers it'll be a good product. Copying Firefox's UI incrementally isn't going to cut it.

	21-09-2005 10:26									#44
	It's the little things... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The UI of the two "remember password" prompts -- which one makes more sense and is easier to use?

The Opera one is a joke -- first of all, "OK" and "Cancel" apparently do the same thing. I hit Cancel and it went ahead and loaded the page also, rather than cancelling the option? Brilliant.

The sentence fragments in the drop-down are also classy, presumably they're to be connected to the first sentence but there's a stupid sentence inbetween?

Attachment: image.jpg
This has been downloaded 24 time(s).

	21-09-2005 10:36									#45
	Support Apolyton

quote: And Firefox does this better. You have 3 clear buttons to push with the actions they do, rather than an "OK" button with an annoying dropdown which takes way too many clicks to use.

That's a really trivial issue. Most users on most pages only need to press enter, other options are very rarely used so whether they are implemented in a dropdown menu or as buttons is not that important.

quote: In Firefox if you told it to remember your password it'll just fill it out on the page when it loads, you don't need to hit the wand thing first.

What if the page also has other information and you may want to wait before logging in?

quote: but why would you bother with something not as extensible,

Can you think of something you would like to see in Firefox and it doesn't exist yet?

quote: not as customizable

All I need a browser to do is browse pages. I don't need RSS, mail client and other functionality that comes in extensions.

quote: and with a lesser UI?

Opera UI is OK, but leaves a lot to be desired. This is however something all browsers have in common in my opinion.

quote: Why do I need to click 3 times to have it remember my password, while in Firefox I need to do it once?"

?

	21-09-2005 10:44									#46
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion What if the page also has other information and you may want to wait before logging in?

It fills in the fields but doesn't "process" it, you hit enter or press the appropriate button after it's filled in.

quote: Can you think of something you would like to see in Firefox and it doesn't exist yet?

Exist in Firefox or exist in Firefox as extensions?

quote: All I need a browser to do is browse pages. I don't need RSS, mail client and other functionality that comes in extensions.

If that was completely true you'd be using IE 6 like most people.

	21-09-2005 10:52									#47
	Got spare money?

quote: It fills in the fields but doesn't "process" it, you hit enter or press the appropriate button after it's filled in.

Then the functionality is same as Opera's. You get on a page where you will log in and in both browsers you need one click.

Firefox's way may be a somewhat more intinuitive for the new user.

quote: Exist in Firefox or exist in Firefox as extensions?

As extensions. Is there something you'd like to see and doesn't exist?

quote: If that was completely true you'd be using IE 6 like most people.

I would never use it because it will always be unsafe, being the biggest target and all.

	21-09-2005 11:14									#48
	Re: Opera now free Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by ixnay http://www.opera.com/free/ With the major reason not to use it gone, there really is no excuse for people to not try it now.

I'm not sure if it isn't to little to late. Opera's market share is tiny and that fact is largely to do with their banner ads. Many superior technologies fail in the market because of bad implimentation and Opera has done a very bad job up to this point.

It will be interesting to see if they recover after changing their approach though typically technologies don't get a second chance.

	21-09-2005 12:36									#49
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Does it have clicks?