21-09-2005 08:44									#1
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Why do you think that there are no complaints about different civs having different traits in Civ, but when you try to discuss the differences between religions (for Civ game) you get objections?

	21-09-2005 09:02									#2
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I object to this thread. I want you to edit the word "religion" out of your OP!!

	21-09-2005 09:29									#4
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MrFun:

I object to your use of the term "thread". It implies this discussion is thin in substance. It should be refered to as "discussion".

Dale

	21-09-2005 09:33									#5
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MrFun made a funny!!!



* alva looks out of his window expecting to see flying pigs and remembers to grab a warm coat for his visit to hell.

	21-09-2005 12:35									#6
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Because Firaxis doesn't want to have planes piloted into their headquarters.

In any case, they have moved away from civs having specific traits like in Civ III to a more politically correct approach of having leaders with different traits.

	21-09-2005 13:09									#7
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we get different pretty buildings for each religion though!

besides, what traits would you put on christianism vs budhism?

	21-09-2005 13:35									#8
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG we get different pretty buildings for each religion though! besides, what traits would you put on christianism vs budhism?

Well, you could think of something. For example, the fact that Christianism is a missionary religion, which would improve both the effectiveness of the missionaries, and give some expansionist bonuses, whereas budhism is more internally oriented, which could help spread ascetic values (e.g. less upkeep, less pollution/unhealthiness) but at the same time spread slower.

Likewise, whereas religions such as islam, christianity or judaism were driving force between many historical conquests, there weren't many historical attempts to spread taoism, budhism or hinduism by the sword (which itself could lead to different bonuses).

But I guess religious SE techs, such as Pacifism, or Theocracy, can represent these differences (e.g. you can say that Christianity with pacifism is more of the "first Christians" type, wheres with Theocracy or State Religion is more of a crusader-era type).

	21-09-2005 14:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG besides, what traits would you put on christianism vs budhism?

buddhism could have higher health, requiring less food resource types (or are only monks vegetarian ? )

christianity: like martines said. and also christianity tumbles into dark ages and low research in theocratic and feudalistic modes but thrives in secular situations?
(and to provoke: seeing religious items in water-marks along some walls, etc )

	21-09-2005 14:05									#10
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in the end you have civics to give you peace-related or conquest-related bonuses. adding such bonuses to religion would make the whole thing too complex and hard to balance

	21-09-2005 19:42									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Martinus Because Firaxis doesn't want to have planes piloted into their headquarters. In any case, they have moved away from civs having specific traits like in Civ III to a more politically correct approach of having leaders with different traits.

According to the Gamespot preview I read, this is not true. The civs still have traits, in addition to the leaders.

	21-09-2005 19:47									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG adding such bonuses to religion would make the whole thing too complex and hard to balance

Mark, I do not understand this argument. They balance civ traits, leader traits, civics, but for whatever reason balancing "religion traits" is hard(er) and and make it too complex? It is relatively small "complication" yet, it gives another dimension to the game. Plus, you can give positive AND negative effects to each religion, so that the net result is 0 if you worry about balance.

	21-09-2005 19:52									#13
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If the religions were given different traits, then one or two would be recognized as the "best" religion. And, if it was a religion other than Christianity, Pat Robertson would ask to have the CIA assassinate Sid.

	21-09-2005 20:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dale MrFun: I object to your use of the term "thread". It implies this discussion is thin in substance. It should be refered to as "discussion". Dale

Substantial discussion? On Apolyton?

	21-09-2005 21:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Philotas If the religions were given different traits, then one or two would be recognized as the "best" religion. And, if it was a religion other than Christianity, Pat Robertson would ask to have the CIA assassinate Sid.

and why the same could not be said about countries?

	21-09-2005 21:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf christianity: like martines said. and also christianity tumbles into dark ages and low research in theocratic and feudalistic modes but thrives in secular situations? (and to provoke: seeing religious items in water-marks along some walls, etc )

Or how Christian monks helped preserve the intellectual heritage of the older ancient civilizations.

	21-09-2005 22:01									#17
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Or how muslim scientists elaborated on that ancient knowledge a bit earlier so that those monks could 'preserve' it.

	21-09-2005 22:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Or how muslim scientists elaborated on that ancient knowledge a bit earlier so that those monks could 'preserve' it.

I'm well aware of the legacy that Muslims had in preserving this legacy -- but too often, people rant on about how Christians were so pathetic during the Middle Ages to the point of forgetting some of the good that came with Christians along with the bad.

	21-09-2005 23:00									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MxM quote: Originally posted by Philotas If the religions were given different traits, then one or two would be recognized as the "best" religion. and why the same could not be said about countries?

I think the key here is that gameplayers will be choosing religions and even small imbalances will lead to a lot of "Christianity is the best" or "Taoism is the best", talk, which you don't really get with the civs. This is because no matter what civilization you choose, the personality of that civilization becomes whatever YOU determine it will be, aside from things like the minor bonuses in Civ III where you couldn't say "Because the French have trait X and Y, they are a better civilization than the Aztecs which have traits A and B." Or at least this effect is diminished greatly by the input the user has. One might be able to say "I prefer playing AGAINST Indians than the Zulus" but that is not quite as testy as "Relgion X is the best in the game."

Also I suspect that players of a certain religion would not want their civ to be different to their own actual religion. Perhaps a Muslim player would specifically make efforts to make his a Muslim civilization, but you don't necessarily want that to be a detriment to the strategy of the game. If Christianity somehow ends up with a competitive advantage you alienate a lot of people from other religions.

Personally I have no problem with it; I think it would add some character to the game but I understand why they're leaving it out. It's impossible already to keep groups from complaining why their "civilizaion" isn't in the game (I'm still waiting for Slovenians, BTW ) so marginalizing some religions in favor of others, even if accidenatal and in the name of better gameplay, could probably get very messy.

Already, in fact, I'm wondering about atheism. Is it necessarily going to be a detriment to your civilizaion if you don't have a state religion or pursue some of the religious aspects of the game? If there is no benefit to pursuing one religion over another I certainly would hope that there also is no necessary detriment to forgoing religion altogether.

	21-09-2005 23:03									#20
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm well aware of the legacy that Muslims had in preserving this legacy -- but too often, people rant on about how Christians were so pathetic during the Middle Ages to the point of forgetting some of the good that came with Christians along with the bad.

Yes, you're quite right there as well. And during those same middle ages some good use was made of the preserved things.

	22-09-2005 05:27									#21
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quote: Because Firaxis doesn't want to have planes piloted into their headquarters.

Knowing religions... fanatics will most likely bomb firaxis because they made their religion equal to all the others.

If they make christianity the best, they'll be criticized by the muslims, and accused of anti-semitism and euro-centrism.

If they make Islam the best, they'll be accused of appeasing terrorists and anti-semitism.

If they make Judaism the best, they'll be accused of zionism, of cowtowing to the financial establishment (which we know is controlled by Jews.... *not*) etc

If they make any of the eastern religions the best, they'll be accused of wishy-washy new age-ism

And if they make all the religions equal... they'll be accused of relativism.

	22-09-2005 06:28									#22
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quote: If they make Judaism the best, they'll be accused of zionism, of cowtowing to the financial establishment (which we know is controlled by Jews.... *not*) etc

dude the jews are so controlling things its all just part of some twisted plot to enslave us all

	22-09-2005 06:49									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Matches10 ...aside from things like the minor bonuses in Civ III where you couldn't say "Because the French have trait X and Y, they are a better civilization than the Aztecs which have traits A and B." Or at least this effect is diminished greatly by the input the user has.

And WHY the same can not be done with religions ??! I still fail to see it!

Just do not make any religion better than others like it was done with civ traits!

	22-09-2005 08:47									#24
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Well, my hope is that in a future expansion, the founder of a new faith can assign one or two 'traits' which he wants to define that faith-with said traits being acquired by any civ which adopts the religion later on.
Also, the founding civ should be able to come along and change traits in a similar fashion to changing civics (i.e. at a cost and with 1 turn of anarchy). Now, what would also be intriguing is if the changing of traits-or a non-founding civ playing against the traits of his religion-could lead to a religious schism, where the non-founding civ could found a sect of the religion to which he belongs. Hmmm, maybe that can be modded in .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	22-09-2005 11:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MxM And WHY the same can not be done with religions ??! I still fail to see it! Just do not make any religion better than others like it was done with civ traits!

i presume because you don't have much choice which religion you "invent". whilst you can choose your civ and leader and modify the civics at game runtime, the religion could only be influenced by NOT discovering it as first...

speaking of that, some questions:
1) what happens if you techwhore ahead and are first to discover several religious techs ( religion and technology in the same context... i never thought i'd ever write that ). will you get more than one religion based in your country?

2) if your religious base city is captured: will the enemy then fully profit of it's "holy centre" benefits? and last...

3) do religions spread out geographically or can they also "jump" half the way around the globe, like with missionarism or when capturing a "lesser" civ (in this case meaning one without it's own religion)

	22-09-2005 12:16									#26
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The most likely answer to the first question is that you probably will-but good luck trying to keep your nation together during the middle part of the game when you are trying to appease half a dozen different religions, especially given that you can only have 1 State religion at any given time !. Admittedly, though, you will probably manage to rake in a fair bit of cash if you manage to convert enough people in other civs to your religion !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	22-09-2005 12:19									#27
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quote: Also I suspect that players of a certain religion would not want their civ to be different to their own actual religion. Perhaps a Muslim player would specifically make efforts to make his a Muslim civilization, but you don't necessarily want that to be a detriment to the strategy of the game. If Christianity somehow ends up with a competitive advantage you alienate a lot of people from other religions.

I don't see how it is relevant.

I mean, an American may likewise want to play Americans but be unhappy with the civilization traits - should we therefore remove them as well?

	22-09-2005 12:21									#28
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quote: 2) if your religious base city is captured: will the enemy then fully profit of it's "holy centre" benefits?

I certainly hope so. After all, this kind of stuff is one of the reasons why there is no peace in Middle East.

	22-09-2005 18:39									#29
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quote: I certainly hope so. After all, this kind of stuff is one of the reasons why there is no peace in Middle East.

wtf capturing your religion center should stir up some nasty resistance. iraq for example,has just made the terroists even stronger than before by giving then worldwide support and more people signing up.

	22-09-2005 18:42									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 wtf capturing your religion center should stir up some nasty resistance. iraq for example,has just made the terroists even stronger than before by giving then worldwide support and more people signing up.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Which religion has its holy cities located in Iraq, exactly?