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Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
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Aug 2000
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 00:33
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Racial discrimination against BNP members? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There’s an interesting legal case pending in Britain about the employment rights of prominent BNP activists-

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/Vie...ticleID=1101232

quote:

A BRITISH National Party councillor could win thousands of pounds in compensation after he successfully appealed against an employment tribunal finding that he was lawfully sacked.
Arthur Redfearn, a Bradford BNP councillor, is now set to face a fresh tribunal hearing in a case that could have wide implications for employers who take on staff who are members of the far-Right party.
After a hearing in London, Mr Justice Burton, president of the Employment Appeals Tribunal, has ruled that the decision of the original tribunal in Leeds earlier this year should be quashed.
Coun Redfearn had claimed racial discrimination after being sacked in June last year as a bus driver with West Yorkshire Transport Services (WYTS) when it was discovered he was standing for election to Bradford Council.
WYTS's parent company, Serco, claimed the decision to fire Coun Redfearn was made on health and safety grounds because it was feared its buses, which carry mainly Asian disabled children and adults, could be attacked once his political affiliation became known. It also said it was acting in his best interests because he could also have been attacked.
But Coun Redfearn had argued that his dismissal was directly related to his involvement with the BNP despite it being a legitimate political party.
He claimed the "whites only" membership of the party meant that if he was dismissed for being a member that would in effect constitute racial discrimination on the grounds of his skin colour.

.

It’s been prominently featured around the unions, and featured in this year’s TUC congress.

http://www.tuc.org.uk/congress/tuc-10572-f0.cfm

There are a few intriguing grey areas that will be examined in the courts, such as these-

1- Should employees be allowed to conduct whatever political activity they choose without censure from their employer?

2- Should employers have the right to fire staff whose political activities threaten to damage (directly or indirectly) their business activities? Or corporate values?

3- Should the BNP be allowed to use safeguards against indirect racial discrimination to protect their members, when such indirect racial discrimination is actually a result of their own direct racial discrimination?

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 00:37
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Park Avenue in 3....2.....1

Az is offline Az
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:02
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quote:
1- Should employees be allowed to conduct whatever political activity they choose without censure from their employer?


yes.

quote:

2- Should employers have the right to fire staff whose political activities threaten to damage (directly or indirectly) their business activities? Or corporate values?


not indirectly, no.

quote:
3- Should the BNP be allowed to use safeguards against indirect racial discrimination to protect their members, when such indirect racial discrimination is actually a result of their own direct racial discrimination?

yes, though I don't know how this is the case of racial discrimination.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:18
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It is kind of wrong to fire people for their political beliefs even if they are asshats. As long as he doesn't bring his politics into the work place he should get a chance to work just like everyone else.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
yes, though I don't know how this is the case of racial discrimination.


You didn't understand the question.

The man in question is claiming that because the BNP restricts its membership to whites, the discrimination against somebody based on their affiliation with the BNP constitutes racial discrimination, because it can only affect whites.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Laz is asking if this sort of indirect racial argument should be allowed.

Japher is offline Japher
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:24
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quote:
The man in question is claiming that because the BNP restricts its membership to whites, the discrimination against somebody based on their affiliation with the BNP constitutes racial discrimination, because it can only affect whites.


The man in question chose his affiliation with the BNP, it's not like he was born a member. It is not racial discrimination, it's knowing he's a bigot and treating him like one.

Az is offline Az
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:28
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quote:

You didn't understand the question.

The man in question is claiming that because the BNP restricts its membership to whites, the discrimination against somebody based on their affiliation with the BNP constitutes racial discrimination, because it can only affect whites.


that's ridiculous!

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Nobody ever said it wasn't.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:30 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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I'm assuming that your answer to number 3 is therefore changed to "no", then?

Az is offline Az
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:31
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more like 'wtf?! hell no'

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
1- Should employees be allowed to conduct whatever political activity they choose without censure from their employer?


it will certainly be interesting to see how the courts approach this one. it would be very hard for them to say that someone doing something perfectly legal outside of work is grounds for sacking someone.

quote:
2- Should employers have the right to fire staff whose political activities threaten to damage (directly or indirectly) their business activities? Or corporate values?


reading this from the yorkshire post article

quote:
"We say the health and safety justification is a thin veneer for the real reason for dismissal."
At the time of the dismissal Coun Redfearn was delivering mail, not driving members of the public.


if this is the case the court may say that his activities weren't damging or threating to damage the company and leave this point undecided. or they might say something about it anyway.

quote:
3- Should the BNP be allowed to use safeguards against indirect racial discrimination to protect their members, when such indirect racial discrimination is actually a result of their own direct racial discrimination?


you've got to admire the way they're using the racial discrimination law here

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
It is kind of wrong to fire people for their political beliefs even if they are asshats. As long as he doesn't bring his politics into the work place he should get a chance to work just like everyone else.



I would even say that it is absolutelyessential to democracy

Az is offline Az
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Spiffor

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher


The man in question chose his affiliation with the BNP, it's not like he was born a member. It is not racial discrimination, it's knowing he's a bigot and treating him like one.


Did he bring his politics into the office or was this simply a case of people found out he was in a given political party and fired him? This seems to be an important bit of information since Britain does not, I believe, have fire at will laws like most US states have.

Zulu Elephant is offline Zulu Elephant
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 02:01
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quote:
I would even say that it is absolutelyessential to democracy


Its not a absolute principle.

If he was working for the Labour party and it turned out that he was a member of the Conservative party, nobody could argue against his sacking...from there it's just shades of grey to this.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 22-09-2005 03:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
Its not a absolute principle.

If he was working for the Labour party and it turned out that he was a member of the Conservative party, nobody could argue against his sacking...from there it's just shades of grey to this.


That's the point I was going to make. At some times sacking people for political beliefs is ok. One is the party example brought up by Zulu. Another is if a Communist magazine fires someone who professes their membership in a Fascist party (or vice versa).

In those situations, firing based on political views is valid.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
In those situations, firing based on political views is valid.

That's because these jobs are inherently political in nature, considering that the purpose of the employees is to promote a political idea. 99.99% of the jobs out there are not of this nature, and it isn't "shades of grey" then: political jobs are completely odd, they don't belong to a continuum of jobs that are more-or-less politically loaded.

If you allow employers to fire people because of their political beliefs, you basically kill any popular movement, except the ones with which the employers can be in agreement (hint: in economic issues, the employers overwhelmingly agree with each other)

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 12:52
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In the US, in those states with fire-at-will laws, it is perfectly acceptable to fire somone for being a member of a political party, as long as you are a private employer. Per se you have "Freedom of Association", it's just that you do not have that in conjunction with retaining your job.

Otherwise you need to belong to a protected class in the USA to avoid non-cause based firing (in fire-at-will states). That includes being disabled (with exceptions that you obviously must be able to do the job with reasonable accomodation), age (40 or older I believe), race (typically minority, reverse discrimination case for whites are viciously hard to win), sex (same as for race, women have substantially more protections than men, though more cases have been won by males than by whites in the previous example, from my understanding), etc.

It's a very complex area of law, and it is the one area that small employers who like the flexibility of fire at will get in trouble. They have a record of arbitrarily firing people simply because they have supervisors who are jerks, and then the supervisor fires someone who is a protected class, who can show than the supervisor's favorites, who for example were all white male drinking buddies, did worse jobs but were not fired.

The only place that there are any consequences to the "fire-at-will" rules are concerning Unemployment Compensation. Each state differs, but in general if you are fired for good cause you can be denied unemployment. This actually pays off for the employer, because increased claims increase their rates. Most Unemployment Boards, or however the state adjudicates this, tend to be favorable to employees, or at least they used to.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 15:56
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I don't think he can make his outragous "racial discrimination" claim stick.

DaShi is offline DaShi
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 16:05
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And why is that?

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
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I should have clarified, some states do have laws protecting freedom of association from retribution. There is no federal right reference employment, so it is a patchwork.

loinburger is offline loinburger
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 16:23 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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In the US, the feds make a distinction between party affiliation and party activity. I'd be allowed to be a card-carrying member of the KKK, but I wouldn't be allowed to attend any rallies.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 17:12
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He may have a chance under different human rights legislation (right to free speach) although thats doubtful.

His chances on racial discrimination are nil

Sikander is offline Sikander
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 17:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
It is kind of wrong to fire people for their political beliefs even if they are asshats. As long as he doesn't bring his politics into the work place he should get a chance to work just like everyone else.


Yep.

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney


it will certainly be interesting to see how the courts approach this one. it would be very hard for them to say that someone doing something perfectly legal outside of work is grounds for sacking someone.



If he's held to be in breach of his contract (which almost certainly would contain clauses about not acting to the detriment of his employer's legitimate business interests within the existing framework of employment law) then even lawful activities can merit the sack.

For instance, I could get a week job in MacDonalds, then spend my weekends protesting lawfully about them outside their front door. You can bet I'd be sacked very quickly.

So if an employee's political actions leave the company exposed to boycotts, then there could be a case for breach of employment contract.

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I don't think he can make his outragous "racial discrimination" claim stick.


And yet, it's those grounds that lead to his successful tribunal appeal. No wonder the TUC is pissed off.

I should start a whites-only political party dedicated to the political act of staring at my female colleague's breasts whilst in the workplace.

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 21:42
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the yorkshire post article you posted says that when he was dismissed he was delivering mail, not driving buses, so he wouldn't have had much direct contact with their customers.

it's difficult to see how his actions could be construed as a detriment to the companies legitimate business interests, unless they find that simply being a member of the BNP can be such a detriment, which i think the court will be reluctant to do, for obvious reasons.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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I think as long as we restrict this to racists, I have no problem. The problem is that once the door is opened, authorities always use this against anyone who is an oppositionist: leftist, liberal, religious nut, etc. Thus it is in my best interests not to allow scum buckets like this to be fired, since it will inevitiably bite me on the ass.

Once I'm in charge though

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
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  Old Post 22-09-2005 21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
the yorkshire post article you posted says that when he was dismissed he was delivering mail, not driving buses, so he wouldn't have had much direct contact with their customers.



Doesn't matter. If his actions cause a boycott of the buses, he's affecting their business interests whether he faces the public or not.

 
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