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KenThur
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North San Francisco Bay, California Republic
May 1999
time: 05:12
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Okay, let's see if we have enough players with the guts & stamina to start out like REAL leaders, in a REAL random world. Bold Explorers of new worlds & of new relationships as they all unfold, century by century. 
Leaders with the Smarts, Savvy, & Staying power to take what the Gods of Civdom give them & forge a little civ into a world power!
Power in ALL it's manifestations!! 
Would be rulers that understand it will take making deals, enemies, & friends to make it to Alpha-C.
And that U will probably NOT make it there first by yourself. (in fact, i can assure U, U won't do it alone)
It mite be wise to limit the game to only 5 or 6 players rather than a full house where, yes, some rulers mite start out in a challenging piece of this planet.
And it must be understood too, that the AI WILL take over your civ occasionaly if U or a level-headed sub cannot be there for a sesson or 2. Believe me, that ain't an altogether bad thing. U ought to see what it's like to come back to a civ that may be in a bit of disarray, but it's gotten RICH & has MANY MORE units than when U left it!
Can even a brand new wonder somtimes! Yeah, i know, it's usually not the 1 U wanted, but it's still a wonder that U have & the others don't. 
Experience not required. The 3 S's above are.
Whimps & those afraid of the dark parts of the map need not apply. Individualistic Ego's should be checked at the windows on the way in (or risk being CRUSHED in the emerging world inside).
As for time... seems the only for-sure committments are for at least 1 evening/nite per week & weekends as possible(like a good solid simul start for several hours?)
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GNGSpam
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Wiggins, MS, US
Oct 2000
time: 05:12
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General problems with Diplogames on non-World maps.
1) Random maps often have chaotic terrain that just isnt good for extended Empire building. Even Pluels and Duels play on maps they make.
2) Diplogames rely heavily on diplomacy, bargaining for land, making claiming regions, etc. The world map helps this. When China demands Indochina, India easily knows what he is talking about. Discussions about the Middle East are easily handled. But refering to that "doo-hicky pennisula thingy on the left" may cause confusion. If they let us label maps like in Alpha Centuari, but they dont.
If you want to do a map besides the earth, which I fully agree and would be intrested in, try getting a third party to design one for you with distinctive but sensical features.
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KenThur
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North San Francisco Bay, California Republic
May 1999
time: 05:12
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Nothing personal, but i did NOT set this post up to be yet another "let's-design-the-perfect-world" forum.
PLEASE. Do not take up space on this thread for a discussion of the frigging MAP.
I DO NOT want to TALK about playing... I set this up to find some players that want to PLAY, not talk!
There is an entire section of Apolyton for discussing every possible way to change the rules, maps, & the game. This area is for PLAYERS to get together in an expeditious way. And PLAY the game as it was designed.
If there are not enuf REAL players out there that have the guts & spirit of challenge & adventure of the unknown... then i'll go buy myself another game that is being played by guys(& gals) that enjoy the above.
The MAP is EXACTLY what this thread is NOT intended to be about. It's to find MEN, not manipulators.
Did i make myself clear enuf this time?
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GNGSpam
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Wiggins, MS, US
Oct 2000
time: 05:12
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Please reread my post, and then reread your post and you decide if it was an appropiate response.
But then seeing as how you were pigheaded enough to make such response in the first place to a perfectly innoncent suggestion myself, I doubt you have the mental abilities to comprehend what im trying to get across.
"Did i make myself clear enuf this time?"
Oh yes, proper english is appreciated also
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MBloomIII
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Jacksonville, FL
Jan 2001
time: 00:12
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by GNGSpam on 01-25-2001 11:59 PM</font>
General problems with Diplogames on non-World maps.
1) Random maps often have chaotic terrain that just isnt good for extended Empire building. Even Pluels and Duels play on maps they make.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
I'm new to MP play so I may be entering an area that has been discussed previously. I would think that the Random Map setting would be the only way to go in any type of game. Part of the fun of CIV is venturing out into unmapped territory. Knowing what is there already would be a major let down for me. I don't even enjoy making maps for play anymore because when I begin to recognize the terrain the "mystery" is gone. Not everybody is going to have a beneficial start and adjusting style of play to fit your surroundings is a major part of the game.
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
2) Diplogames rely heavily on diplomacy, bargaining for land, making claiming regions, etc. The world map helps this. When China demands Indochina, India easily knows what he is talking about. Discussions about the Middle East are easily handled. But refering to that "doo-hicky pennisula thingy on the left" may cause confusion. If they let us label maps like in Alpha Centuari, but they dont.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
I think a natural part of a diplo game would be negotiating with human CIV's and developing a common name for the regions, continents, oceans, etc.. that are present. "My people call that area of the world The Great Beyond." "Well my people call it the The Wonderlands and we shall fight to the death any who call it otherwise." Or whatever..
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
If you want to do a map besides the earth, which I fully agree and would be intrested in, try getting a third party to design one for you with distinctive but sensical features.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
I really feel this would take away from the adventure of discovery that is a natural part of the game.
(This is just my 2-cents and I am fully prepared to admit you are wrong )
------------------
"Reality is for people who lack faith" - Church sign
"Bible study at the Lowest Common Denominator, so you can relate!"
I gotta join this church!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MBloomIII (edited January 26, 2001).]</font>
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The Capo
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of the Baltimorons
May 2000
time: 05:12
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Generally I agree with Kent within the context of a new world, but I basically agree with GNGS (Chris) on his basic premis.
The idea of a diplogame on another planet will not make sense because there are so many intrinsic (SP?) parts of a diplogame that will be completley ignored in a game with a random planet.
On random maps, computer generated ones, you tend to get not only a hodge-podge of terrain, but also a hodge-podge of land v. sea.
Which basically removes a lot of key elements in a diplogame, seafaring (not the tech but the idea in general) becomes less a factor, as any Trerime can navigate the usual computer generated map's layout.
Based solely on that reason, I can already suggest you find the services of a Map Maker to create your map, I will personally love to do this as I am a major proponent of the Diplogame, and would love to be known as the genre's "patriarch."
I will create it in a scenario type file that the players may download right before they play, put into place, and play out. I will choose the starting locations based on numerous factors, the main one would be creating a realistic diplomatic situation while at the same time giving it a uniqueness from the history of Earth.
There will be larger continents, smaller continents, sets of islands, deserts, jungles, forests, tundra, mountain ranges, great rivers, great lakes, bountiful harbours, etc...
I think your best bet is to get someone to create this map, and not to go with a totally random one. That's what I think....
Discuss....
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Capo di tutti Capi
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The fine metropolis of Baltimore, Maryland
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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The Capo is heavily considering attending this get together, whether he intends on playing or not.
Thank you.
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KenThur
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North San Francisco Bay, California Republic
May 1999
time: 05:12
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WELL, a new UNKNOWN world has started to unfold!!
This, our 1st report to the Civers unseen, 1200BC:
Fearless Ruler Phil-Milo appeared from the darkness to find his 2 groups of hard working settlers at what appeared to be a rather advantageous site for the Spanish capitol. Tho rather too near what seems to be an iceland & having much productoin & food specials, had little to help in our quest for gold & knowledge. But we needed a capitol & this Milo said is IT! The futre Great City of "S" was begun! (what our great leader lacks in creative city-naming, he says he will make up for in enlightened leadership?)
From that semi-humble beginning, the Span's started moving inland. Building roads as we went & finding some tribes willing to share a little gold & several wisdoms. Our lands are varied with some excellent sites for cities but some areas devoid of anything worth developing. 
Our advanced search parties finally found a river to aid in our wealth & knowledge creation! So our fine, passionate, lustful senoritas produced many fine young settlers to populate this (unfortunately) short little river valley.
Thus were "Sb" & "Sc" (see, what we mean) created, but not creative!
-----------------------------------
Now into our 2nd millenium of existence, we are finally starting to make alittle gold & technological progress.
We have estabished several more little towns & even found an advanced tribe that was willing to join us... tho they are rather far away & thus not under very tight control.
Our explorations are going well & our brave horsemen had nearly defined our rather strangely shaped, but large island.
Or so we thot, "island".
As our 1st dynasty of Milos was ending... we met a pale blue settler! He called himself an "American".
His ruler, "Ridd", immediately asked our horse for a peace treaty.
Being a generally reasonable & semi-peaceloving kinda peoples, our horse agreed to this Ridd's proposal.
This unfortunately, seems to have been no more than a ploy by our 1st neighbors to keep us from discovering that these Americans are throwing up cities as fast as they can. Yet NOT even having the decency to protect their own citizens from marauding barbs &/or visiting horseman!
As the era was ending, we proposed to their overly-expansionist "leader" that some sort of "Protection Payment" would be appropriate to keep our horseman out of his city-too-far.
To that end, we will ensure your unprotected citizens remain... American citizens. For sa-a-ay-y-y, 2 early, near-useless techs or a tech & 75 gold (that he should have spent on a unit to protect his people).
We do NOT consider this an act of war, just a neighborly reminder to protect your citizens.
Because if thou doest not... other rulers will.
Your choice sire. But make it quick, horsemen are chopping at their bits to ride into the unprotected little city.
That is all for now, world out there.
King Milo the ____________
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited February 11, 2001).]</font>
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Capo di tutti Capi
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The fine metropolis of Baltimore, Maryland
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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"I see nothing sir, nothing but desert." Said Sextus, as he peered through a telescope.
"Give me that boy!" Yelled General Pertinax. He took the telescope and looked "That doesn't make sense, that line of shrubs there, its quite far but I bet that is where the Barbarians hide.... Men! We are going to continue marching, I want our Archers one hundred paces behind our Infantry, HO!"
The Roman soldiers marched, it had been months since they had last gazed upon their homes, their children, and their beloved wives. Perhaps though, they were not only fighting for gold, but for the very existance of Rome, their great land. Dictator Caesar had ordered troops to search the landscape for suitable terrain, this had been accomplished all-over, but for the arid deserts of Antium in the north west. Not only had this desert teemed with dry and harsh land, but had also teemed with terrible Barbarians, hellbent on destroying the civilized Romans. The Romans had been a lucky people, nomadic wanderers from the Eastern forests of Cumae, they had happened upon a lush and fertile river valley and laid work for their great capital of Rome. In a very short time they had expanded accross the great continent, Italium, to forge a vast and impressive Federal Empire. Formed between the city states of Antium, Rome, Veii, Cumae and Neapolis.
After much searching, the only other inhabitants of this land were the Antian Barbarians from the deserts. Caesar was displeased and became ill, some say it was due to these findings...
"Men, stay strong, stay vigil, you are the troops of Rome, you should be proud of your stance, and your position. Have glory, have honor. Strength and honor! Viva la Roma!" said General Berzerker, he was in fact an Antian, but had joined the Roman army as a youth when he was orphaned by another Antian leader. He had risen the ranks and was dedicated to defeating the barbarians once and for all.
"VIVA LA ROMA!" cried the troops, rasing their swords into the air.
"What do you think Pertinax?" asked the young General Berzerker.
"I think we will win today my son, I am getting far too old for this." quipped the elderly general.
"Aye, you are sir" laughed Berzerker as he patted his leader on the back. "Then again, who's ever too old for killing some Antians?" he laughed.
"Alright Berzerker, I lay this campaign upon your shoulders, you will lead our men on this field today." Pertinax handed him the imperial sword "You are the best General in Rome, you will be emperor one day, lead your men to victory Berzerker..." the old General gave him a serious look. Berzerker was confused, how could they give such a prestigious post to a former Barbarian?
A loud cry quickly snapped the concentration of the young general "Voor Hooten! Denz Romana!" yelled the Barbarians as they ran wildly from the shrubbery.
"Steady men, right Infantry flank!" yelled Berzerker, the troops quickly obeyed.
"Archers forward!" ordered the young general. "Horses, begin to cut into their center, I want the left Infantry to attack their right, Archers fire at the left upon my signal, right Infantry, you clean up the mess..... Archers forward!" the Archers moved up, and loaded their bows. "Afrende!" yelled Berzerker.
The archers fired, killing most of the left, who scattered behind the right side of the Barbarian lines. The Horses then cut into the center, further scattering the barbarians, who tried to regroup, but it was too late, the Roman Infantry was hitting their right leaving small amounts of troops running back into the left flank. That's when the rest of the Infantry came in and slaughtered the Barbarians, Berzerker watched his troops destroy the Antians. "You have done well son... here" said Pertinax. He handed Berzerker a small scroll.
"What is this?" asked Berzker.
"Read it my son." said Pertinax.
Berzerker opened it, and looked up at his general stunned, sir, what is thi?" he asked.
"Do not call me sir General Berzerker... you are the Emperor now..." Pertinax held Berzker's hand and kissed it "Viva la Roma!" he said....
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rridd
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LaVergne, TN
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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During the night, the Goddess Ground felt a terrible pain. When she located the cause
it was a huge purple rip in the fabric of space and time. Through the rip, a large
group of humans staggered and fell to the ground. Ground could tell that the place
across the rift was a place of great magic, whereas Grounds universe had no magic at all.
"These people will be hard pressed to live without magic in their lives." she thought.
"I will send a sage to follow their exploits."
I am Herring the sage, a follower of Ground. When I arrived at the encampment of the new
humans, they were discussing the lack of food in this area. I soon found out that the group
was lead by two brothers, Roland and Ralph. Both decided to split the tribe into two equal
groups, with a brother leading each group. The first to find decent land for a city would
start the city and be named Leader, his brother being 2nd in command.
Roland took his group and headed along the coast, while Ralph headed south across the hills.
After a long trek Roland found a suitable place for and city and started their Capital city,
Washington. Not long after Ralph found a city named New York.
After consolidating the tribe under the leadership of Roland, the tribe settled down to the
work of surviving. Ralph was given a group to train as warriors, to explore and defend the
empire. While the tribe slowly increased, Ralph's warriors found the remains of three dead
civilizations. One had been crushed completely, while the other two left behind treasure and
the wonder of Science. The exploration continued next finding a city of backwards people who
quickly agreed to join the Americans (as Roland had named the tribe in memory of their past
homeland), for command defense against the Barbarians who wondered the land.
Soon afterwards, the warriors found a group of wandering nomad who joined the Americans
and started a new city. By this time Washington and New York had prospered enough to
send out settlers to develop some of the land discovered by their warriors.
Upon continued exploration the Americans found another city and group of wandering nomads.
Both of whom agreed to join the Americans in prospering and promoting peace. By the time
that these groups had prospered and could send out settlers and new and wondrous event
happened.
One of a city's defender saw dust rising outside the city. Upon investigating he saw a
man on the back of a wonderful beast. It was sleek and faster than any animal he had
experience with (mostly Buffalo). Upon talking to the newcomer they rejoiced that the
new civilization also was peaceful and agreed to treat each other with mutual respect.
They were called the Spanish and lived to the north.
But almost immediately the true nature of the Spanish was discovered. When continued
exploration into the Americans territory discovered a newly settled city. The barbarians,
calling themselves the Spanish, demanded tribute or they would sack the city. At this
point Ralph, leader of the military, is pressing for a war against the northern barbarians
who's word is as good as month old fish.
Roland states that he is sure that there is a misunderstanding and has requested a
meeting with PhilMilo II to correct this problem before full scale war erupts between the
conflicting forces engage.
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belinda9
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Nashville, TN USA
Dec 2000
time: 23:12
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LOL
Listen, children, that you might tell your children as it was told to me, lest our tradition become lost.
Sony, our wondrous capital, was founded between these shores in the year 4000 where they could hunt the whale and prosper. Some, discontent to settle there, wandered on and attracted a lone chariot to go forth and scout out better lands. Our peoples soon discovered teh horse, which gave us greater mobility. Another place of whale-hunting was found, along with a new and rare commodity known as silk, and Toei was built. Ancient scrolls were discovered, which gave us valuable new knowledege, and the Japanese continued to grow and more peoples left to find new lands to live upon. Off the eastern shore was discovered more whales, and the grapes to make the wine that Eido is now famous for.
And from the east came a rider dressed all in purple, from beyond the Bottleneck. They were the fierce, fair Mongols upon their horses Oh, what feasting and sharing of tales did thus ensue, as we pledged ourselves always to be allies with the Mongol.We learned many things from the Mongols, and taught them some things, ourselves.
Even as such good fellowship carried on, nomads were discovered among the great buffalo herds of the south, and they did wish to be Japanese and estblish Samsung along our southern coast.
Then came the evil days of the third millenium. We heard little from our good Mongol friends, and reports came to us of fierce fighting between Mongol and the Red Barbarians. Even as we heard of these atrocities, Barbarian ships were offloading archers off the coast of Eido! The Japanese began to devote more of their efforts on defense and the people were no happy throughout the land. production suffered and famine was about the land.
And yet our people perservered through the dark times and ever kept trying to find better lives for all our peoples. The great Road connecting all the ities of Japan was completed, and Kawasaki was settled to hunt the buffalo. Even to this day, there are many Japanese who seek new and greener lands so that they may add to the prodution of this glorious homeland. Our wise men have discovered the making of maps, and small watercraft have been built.
Just within your lifetime, we have discovered that there is yet another civilized people-- across the northern horizon there live a strange race who call themselves "Romans". Our wise and glorious leader, Belinda-san, is planning a prudent and wise meeting with these apparent savages to see if they are a threat to us.
But do not fear, my students. Look, I discovered this myself just the other day -- look, if you measure the angles of any triangle like so...and so... and so... they will always = 180! And if the arc can be speculated as I believe, I can see a great weapon potential! I think I shall try to teach you this new science I have developed -- I think I will call it mathematics...
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KenThur
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North San Francisco Bay, California Republic
May 1999
time: 05:12
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Calling All Rulers & Ruler Wannabe's & Rulers We Want to Be:
Nappy, Lion of Many Civ Worlds
Berzerker, Master of the Middle World
CapTVK, Graphics & Field Marshal Extrordinare'
We beckon thee to step into a budding civ this new world will have to offer... as early as the upcoming 2nd dynasty.
Hearing nor reading any discussion to the contrary, the 2nd dynasty will begin @21:00 East US (Apolyton) time.
If possible rulers, freshmen & sophomores alike, arrive somwhat earlier so we may discuss & lock in civ's.
Now, please stand up & in a vigorous command voice repeat after me...
"! Viva Espana y Milo el Hombre !"
============================================
Proposed Special Add-on Final Ranking Award for:
" Best Posts " (we seem to have some real skill here)
Your Vote, please.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited February 12, 2001).]</font>
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KenThur
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North San Francisco Bay, California Republic
May 1999
time: 05:12
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King Milo desires to have the court of rulers on high, be exposed to the settlement he, as protector of future generations of young Spanish children & old mamas, will hereby propose to the American rapid expansionists.
Be it understood,our horse is at an unprotected empty city's gates. He does have enough movement left to enter the city... only, Ruler Ridd, because it is on a river (hint: NEVER leave a river city open... think about it).
Be it also understood, that a contract or treaty based on false premises = null & void, until such circumstances are remedied.
Thus our Great & Just King doth have 3 choices:
1> waltz into the city; thereby receiving a tech advance + an undetermined amount of gold.
2> accept a tithing as proposed above, to allow the city's citizens to remain under the control of this careless & perhaps heartless, ruler.
3> accept the city as a "protectorate", thereby sparing it any harm & the American ruler gives up neither tech nor gold.
After our closed door discussions with Ruler Ridd, the high council of Espana has indicated to King Milo that choice #3 would not only be the least painful to the Amer's, but that it will satisfy our concerns that this expansionistic civ will take more of our lands.
We await your response Ruler Ridd.
And please, do not speak of war with us. Our units are nearly all vets & our system of roads cited in our report above, will give thee more than U may bargin for. We have many seasons of history before us, let us be good or at least even neighbors hence forth.
May U learn & grow (in widsom, not in size) from this early experience.
Sincerely, Phil-Milo II King of the Span's
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Nap Bonaparte
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Newport Beach, California
May 2000
time: 05:12
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Milo...thanx for the invitation to sub. Looks like Berz is taking over for the Romans. If one of the other civs needs a sub/replacement let me know. Wed. nights 5pm PST works best for me.
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belinda9
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Nashville, TN USA
Dec 2000
time: 23:12
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actually, I prefer Wed. nights, as my husband is not home that night -- so I can play later then (an with less hassle. sigh. men!)
War4ever, if you are not going to play Mongols, please find someone to do so -- I do not want this civ to be run by AI, please.
BTW, the honorable Japanese do not look favorably upon peacebreakers, however they may rationalize their acts of war. However, being as we are a world away, who cares, hmmm?
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rridd
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LaVergne, TN
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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Wednesday or Thursdays are ok with me. The earliest I can play is 8:00 cst.
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rridd
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LaVergne, TN
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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Greeting Milo the Despicable
I am trying to avert a civil war between hawks and doves in council. The hawks think that your threats are just a way to continually demand tribute throughout our “peace”, since your and our definition of peace seems to differ.
However, I have convinced enough hawks to support me in this response. We will give 1 knowledge advancement and half of our gold. In return we want your guarantee that for the next 1000 years (20 turns) you will not try to renegotiate the “peace”. Also to help nullify the supposed threat from us, we will agree to not expand to the north and west of our cities of San Francisco and Buffalo.
If you can not agree to these terms, do whatever you want. We will see what the other rulers think about peace agreements that don’t even last 1 turn.
Roland
Ruler of the Americans
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KenThur
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North San Francisco Bay, California Republic
May 1999
time: 05:12
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So it seems Weds eves @ 20:00 CST / 18:00 PST it is for this interesting & challenging event.
Bezerker... pls post here to confirm that will work for thee to continue with the Romans?
Also, Civ? If U R still interested, we are running on the edge as far rulers, so pls keep an eye open here?
=================================================
As for the "peacemaker or PeaceBreaker" discussion, nego's... we shall consider thine offer upon seeing the lay of the land on the inside.
-------------------------------
That is all.
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Nap Bonaparte
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Newport Beach, California
May 2000
time: 05:12
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I can sub for War4ever as the Mongols. Tues after 6:30pm PST, Wed. after 5:15 pm PST and MOST Thurs. after 7pm PST work for me(this Thur. I wont be available until after 8pm PST). However, tomorrow (Valentines Day) is probably not a good day for me to join in.....I will only be available from 5:15-7:30 pm PST.
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26-01-2001 08:28
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