08-11-2000 23:52									#121
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Mis, that is quite extraordinary - I honestly didn't realise you and Garth were so weak early on in the game. That'll teach me not to do my homework before I take over someone else's game As for infiltration -nope, I was preparing a probe team to do the dirty work as Garth declared vendetta....

The early game tech exchanges - I have no idea what was exchanged, WE is the only person that can comment on that. All I know is, I was given all the prereqs. for airpower, and couldn't get it the first time. I tried to get another tech from somewhere in order to reshuffle things, but to no avail.

As for the bribery, yep it was me. All I can say is that Garth must have done something pretty bad early on as the response came back:
"I shall destroy the bible-bashing Believers in exchange for 0 energy credits."

The funniest thing is, one of the replies to that read:
"You know I could never raise such a sum!"

Oh, you stupid, stupid idiot Mark, why didn't you see the weaknesses and struck while the iron was hot? I don't know - just another one of my specialities - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory once again.

	09-11-2000 00:53									#122
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Lousy Hive If the game had continued I would have used my "special" bombers on them

	09-11-2000 02:58									#123
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Here's what caught me off gaurd. Simpson II tells me that Misotu only has lasers and the armor with 2 defense (can't remember the name) and then not too much later after Mark takes over the Believers are busting into his territory with 6-3 rovers! I was a bit surprised to say the least.

I was never sure how sincere you two were about saying you were under teched either. I kinda thought it was a bluff especially after the Believers launched their attack.

I never infiltrated anyone, did anyone get me? I had a pretty stiff probe defense, but maybe one of you two snuck one in on me. I thought the probe defense would stall an attack do to the uncertainty of my defense, but after running over Mark I'm sure you were pretty confident of yourselves.

I also only captured two mindworms which was a bummer although I didn't get serious enough about finding them till late in the game. My fault. The second one I captured was last turn and had little bearing on the game as it standed obviously.

My pact with Busta was edgy in my opinion. I wasn't ready to commit to a solid pact with him ever because it seemed like he was runnning away with the game. It wasn't till Simpson II stepped into the picture that I felt secure with our pact.

The last tech I was researching was Doctrine AP and was as close as three turns away from it until I got blasted by you two. It probably wouldn't have done much good at that point because you two already had jets in production, if not already in the air.

As far as trading tech with the Morgan players I think we over traded at some points early in the game. The tech we gave each other weren't key techs, but techs that led to key techs and what it ended up doing was jacking the cost of our next techs way too high making it a long time before we got anything new. Maybe this is the way it always is, but I haven't had this much trading happen in my single player game experience.

I also saw that Simpson II (I think) had a ton of military units built up in the base closest to Garth, but couldn't see them on the map or even knew what he planned to with them. I was never sure how strong Garth was and I was never very strong myself. I didn't have a laser unit protoyped ever and it wasn't until Mark gave me missles that I built an offensive unit. Probably a big mistake in hindsight, but I thought we had plenty of time before you two would get to impact weapons and then build and prototype a force capable of pushing through my 1-2 rover defenses. Little did I know...

I also underestimated the power of Doctrine AP I probably wouldn't have strayed as far from the path there had I known better. For instance I went for Green and never even switched to that SE. Once I traded with Simpson II right before I got a tech and next turned switched to Advance Military Alogrythms (I think that is it's name; the tech that allows you to build bunkers and switch your SE to Power). I probably should have picked something on the path to Doctrine AP at that point to help us out (I don't think AMA is on the beeline to DAP, I'll have to check when I get home)

One question: For the purposes of the tournament how do you decide who gets the points for this one?

I was never too clear on that and assumed I would have to duke it out with Morgan eventually which added to my distrust of him (the three him's).

	09-11-2000 03:16									#124
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Oh, don't sweat it Mark. If they had attacked me I would have been toast too. Like I said earlier, I was under the impression that they had a much lower level of tech than they did. I was under the initial assumption that the Believers were coming at you with 4-1 rovers only to find out from you that they were in fact 6-1 rovers, 6-3 infantry, and 1-3 rovers. Who would have thought? I know I didn't.

	09-11-2000 03:23									#125
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I also forgot to say "Good Game All! That includes Simpson II and BustaMike!" It was a lot of fun and I learned a lot. Thanks! Wish me luck as I fight for freedom and humanity as the Gaians, again, and Morgan in two new tournamnet games.

	09-11-2000 04:46									#126
	Full PM-box? Change here!

WE, thanks, and good luck! Oh, wait a sec, you're not in any of my games are you? No - good luck!

Oh well, I heartily congratulate the victors, Misotu and Garth Vader, for overcoming the odds and defeating us. The most important thing, of course, is that we all had fun, and I think we pretty much did. A good game to all, and remember, when we next meet, it will be in battle!!

	09-11-2000 05:07									#127
	Inflate your Upload Space

We were genuinely under-teched. It was horrible

I stole Gatling from the PKs as soon as they researched it and then I *think* I stole SFF from Morgan using a probe foil on his HQ. I also infiltrated him there using a foil probe. No-one but me built any sea-going vessels, so I was quite secure on the ocean. Garth stole a bunch of techs from Morgan around the same time, so maybe he got SFF. Whatever.

WE, we never managed to infiltrate you. In fact, that was my only reason for calling the council - easy infiltration. I certainly didn't make much energy from it, my inefficiency was *appalling* - literally. Fundy/planned. Yuck.

Interesting, your comments on the differences between Morgans 1 through 3. Like you said, the critical one was Busta - unless you really trust your partner, you just can't hammer down the beelines. You're also right about exchanging techs ... basically, to get there fast, you have to give each other only the techs you absolutely must, to keep your research costs down. Otherwise, as you say, it takes forever to research anything.

Mark, you shouldn't feel bad about not getting stuck in - I was ploughing through UoP and PK bases and you couldn't really be sure where we were on weapons unless you had us infiltrated. Course, elite laser rovers are pretty damn fine against scout/synthmetal defenders. So it may have looked intimidating, but it really wasn't impressive at all. I thought I'd better, you know, momentum a bit and I didn't want to take on either of you guys at that point

On the scoring ... well, I know Garth was speaking bitter words about submission during the game but this was really a team game. We co-operated to the hilt. According to Tau, the first true team game to be completed *and* the first random map game! At the moment, I think the scoring says 2 points for the winner, and a point for any submissive faction pacted with the winner. A team game means that the two players get a single point each, so that's how this game will be scored.

I know that Tau is looking at the team scoring, because there are additional points available depending on the players beaten. Every game you win, means you're worth more points to any player who beats you (I think they get one extra point for every victory you've accrued). So when Mark and WE win some of their other tourny games this season, the value of our victory will increase. (Garth and I are rooting for both of you in all your other games. Make us proud, lads ).

What isn't defined at the moment is how that works on team games rather than outright victories. Right now, the victor gets 2 points plus any points for the vanquised players, while the submissive gets just one point and no points for vanquished players. Obviously this is fine where you have submissives, but doesn't work where you have an equal team partnership. So we'll have to see what is decided.

It will be good to have a formalised team scoring system though, because that means that people can team up in pairs from the get-go and challenge each other, all within the tourny and with the advantage of a reliable CMN. It's a less lonely way to play, I think (although I still like the single challenges too) and I also think it gives newbies a less intimidating way to try MP for the first time. I was scared to death in my first MP (with good reason. Nerve gassed out of existence by 2142, so don't *you* feel bad Mark!). Team games are good fun - someone to have a laugh with, plus someone to blame when you lose. Perfect

	09-11-2000 05:14									#128
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I keep doing this ... I take so long to type my posts that there are new replies by the time they get there.

Maybe I should write less?

Don't answer that.

Best of luck in your games WE - and the same to Mark and Garth. The turn rate was great, it was a fun game and it was neat to have the discussion afterwards.

	09-11-2000 19:55									#129
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Yes, good game and good luck to you all.

I am now looking for another game if anybody is interested. A team game as Mis mentioned would be interesting. My last attempt at that failed because we tried a 6 player game which died almost instantly.

	12-11-2000 07:29									#130
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Hmmph... I wondered how this had gone, I guessed it might be over by now.

Just to give my side of the story, even if everyone has left... when I took over I had no military but one very green impact rover and numerous garrison scout infantry. We didn't even have high energy chemistry. Seriously, a laser-rush with decent troops would have taken me out at that point, there weren't even any sensors around my bases.
The 6/7 troops I left mark on the border with Garth weren't even ones I had built myself. When I left demo on the first turn, Yang became very friendly (we were pacted - go knows how Busta arranged that) and gifted me a bunch of them. I was waiting another few turns for techs and prototypes before upgrading them and building a main army - I didn't want lots of synthmetal defenders waltzing around when I could have built 6/3s in a few turns. Possibly I should have panicked more.
I changed my research priorities towards Doc:AP right away, and I was lucky to get HEC from an artefact I cashed a few turns after I took over. Unfortunately the game wouldn't let me take a direct path any more than mark13.
The best thing I did was probably to build a foil probe and infiltrate Misotu (no says Mis, we don't have high energy chemistry, trust me ), but I couldn't get to Garth. I had rovers hopping over his border each turn, so I was watching him building a road to connect his base to mine with some amusement. I was planning to wait for him to finish it, then take Yang's troops along it... ah well. I tried to send WE a message suggesting we make some sort of joint attack on Garth, but he never responded - I wonder if he ever got it, things might have been rather different.

	13-11-2000 04:30									#131
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I can't say I remember any message, but I was woefully unprepared anyways. I could have sent a larval mindworm over and some 1-1 scouts and if we were lucky a couple of 1-2 rovers. I suppose I could have ruined some terraforming before getting smacked around???

	13-11-2000 04:52									#132
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LOL Simpson II, I *didn't* have high energy chem then ... but Garth did, or was about to get it. I knew I would have it the next turn

I am typically fairly honest in these things, but I see no reason to provide more info than is necessary

	13-11-2000 05:22									#133
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Ah... I wondered how it went from laser and synth metal to missels and plasma so soon.

	13-11-2000 05:30									#134
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And how much information would you regard as being 'necessary'?

But no, to be honest, I too was extremely surprised when Garth showed up with 4 elite missile rovers (okay, so it's a bit of an exaggeration), and even more surprised when he showed up with 6x-1-10s. It could have been a good battle if we had been just an eensy weensy bit more prepared than we were, and if we had paid a little more attention to D:AP. The next part of the game would have been the most interesting, with the builders getting bombarded from both sides, and once the momentum players got D:AP we would have had a hard time of things. Oh well, I suppose it was not to be....

	14-11-2000 06:55									#135
	Inflate your Upload Space

Now Mark, as far as I remember I never attacked you with Missile units. My missile units were behind my impact force and I didn't have enough cash to upgrade them quickly. Now WE, he got hit by missile troops. Oh and Mis hit you with elite missile rovers.

But I will admit elite Believer impact troops hit hard enough to make you think they are missile

	14-11-2000 19:36									#136
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I certainly saw one or two missiles in there, and a fair number of elite impacts. Mis sent two elite missiles in to my western base - they would probably have taken my entire army given half a chance - LOL....