19-05-2001 08:49									#1
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Keygen has put forward an interesting idea for consideration.

Each of the three smac/x forums (Apolyton, ACOL and CGN (the Civilization Gaming Network) to put forward their best pairing for a six-player three forums challenge game, winner takes bragging rights.

One suggested pairing to represent Apolyton is Misotu, as the current leader in the Tau Ceti tourney competition, paired with big_canuk, the current leader in Solver's Ladder rankings.

But we have many fine players here, as do the other two forums. And Keygen too deserves a voice (as the contest was his idea originally)

I suggest preliminary qualifying heats, or, in other words, playoff games for the honor of representing Apolyton in Forum Wars .

Three teams of 2 will be in each game, with only the winner advancing until there is just one winning pair left, who will then carry our banner into the fray.

To capture the broadest possible participation, it will likely be SMAC.

I have volunteered to CMN the Ultimate match, and would also be willing to do the honors for these qualifying games (and thus will be ineligible to compete)

Thoughts everyone? Comments? Should we just vote Mis and big_canuk our reps and throw the challenge to ACOL (Mark13 has already commenced the process of finding a worthy pair to represent CGN)

Express yourselves here

G.

	20-05-2001 09:25									#2
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First up, thought I'd better post a link to the CGN thread and the ACOL thread...

It looks like playoff games are going to happen, at all three forums. Seeing as there are only two slots for each forum, and a varying number of applicants, I would advise that the foums each independently decide the format of their playoffs. We should also set a final entry date, to make sure none of them take too long.

Thoughts?

	19-05-2001 23:27									#3
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I would say let's make 2-3 teams each site.
I guess there are more than two great players in each site.
I am pretty confident that those teams that will lose will want a rematch, which would be impossible in PBEM. But having more than one game running between the three sites would give them the chance .

I will participate in the one team while Misotu and Big_Canuk could assemble a second team. I would recommend a third team also.

[This message has been edited by Keygen (edited May 19, 2001).]

	20-05-2001 06:11									#4
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I am new to this forum and know nothing about the other two sites, so this is certainly only a suggestion. I would like to build on Keygen's point above. Maybe you could do something more like a Ryder Cup competition rather than just one game with only two players from each site.

Since each site has more than just two superb players, you could identify the top 5 solo players and the top 3 teams on each site. Then, you could have Single Player games 1 through 5 (each with one player from each site) and Team Games 1 through 3 (each with a two-player team from each site). Each site would have a captain, who is responsible for setting who plays each game beforehand, but all games would start at the same time. The winner of each game would receive 1 point. The site with the most points wins the title. In case two sites tie, there could be a sudden-death game put together by agreement of the two tying captains.

I would think this would give a little better indication of which site has the better players than one game with six players. Again, just a suggestion. Best of luck to Apolyton in the challenge.
[This message has been edited by Qantaga (edited May 19, 2001).]

	20-05-2001 06:59									#5
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This seems a very good proposal Qantaga. There are certainly enough players with proven skills around to fill these slots. What do you think would be the best way to identify the players?

	20-05-2001 07:26									#6
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Ah well, Misotu, there's the real challenge, isn't it?

Being new to the forums, I wouldn't dream of trying to throw out any names. Maybe the best starting point would be to appoint a Captain (or even a committee) from the site. You would all know who has the best handle on identifying talent around here.

The Captain or Committee could probably identify 2 or 3 top names and teams right off the bat. The rest of the spots could be filled by a challenge game (or games).

Of course, you could also raise the number of spots per site to try to include all the elite players. Even if it turned out to be, for example, 10 solo players and 5 teams per site. That could be negotiated by each site's Captains to try to be fair for the size of each community.


[This message has been edited by Qantaga (edited May 19, 2001).]

	20-05-2001 07:54									#7
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That sounds reasonable. I'd have thought a committee would be better than a single person - a 3-way decision has more clout than one (possibly subjective opinion) and it's less stressful for the committee, since they can all back each other up.

Mind you, it relies on people being willing to do it ... I suppose Googlie might consider getting a triumvirate together, since he is the author of this thread and, besides which, has been around for long enough to know something about most of the players here ... Tau is similarly experienced. Don't want to presume though.

Alternatively, I suppose we could have a poll but that's probably a lot more work in the end and perhaps not so effective unless people really participate ...

I think people should have the right to challenge for a place, through a one-on-one play-off. It'd have to be a fast match though, or we'll be trying to decide on teams this time *next* year

	21-05-2001 09:53									#8
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One way to avoid having to ask for a vote, is asking the question "Does anyone object to...?"

So the question could possibly be, "Does anyone object to the trio of Googlie, Tau, and Misotu, putting together our Ryder Cup Team?"

While this is not nescessarily *the* best question, it is IMO certainly one of the best. Among those three, you have great game players, great game knowledge, knowledge about the playing abilities of most of us, diplomats, and skilled communicators, and I think all other skills nescessary for the job. Is there any skill anyone else can bring that is not already embodied it these three? I think not. What do you think?

[This message has been edited by big_canuk (edited May 20, 2001).]

	21-05-2001 00:32									#9
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Great....we have the playoff stuation sorted over at CGN, and here at 'Poly, we've decided on a different format....typical....

Still, a Ryder Cup-style tournament is a good idea - the only main problem being that we don't have the sort of strength in depth at CGN that you have here at Apolyton. Six players is absolute tops for us, at the moment, unfortunately.

	21-05-2001 02:16									#10
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We may start with 3 team and a couple non-team games with equal number of participants from the 3 sites, 2 players each site, each game, team and non-team games. If all the sites come up with more players then some additional team or/and non-team games could start after.

	21-05-2001 03:53									#11
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Hi - as I will be running for the opposition (CGN) and do my best to annoy everyone here by bringing the trophy elsewhere - I will stay out of the discusison on who runs completely.

Besides this there are a few other issues to sort out however such as rules and settings.

Personally for a tourney thing I prefer a tourney style map (that is prepared and equal for all).

Also on CGN the idea seemed to be that there would be playoffs internally and then a champ vs champ end-game. Here the drift seems to be electing representatives and going directly inter-forum.

Another point to consider is with 6 factions on one map it should be SMACX or there will a lot of arguing about faction choices.

Finally I find it worth considering if setting up 3 games with all teams meeting all seperately is preferable to 1 game with 6 factions.

	22-05-2001 05:49									#13
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I think Buster is talking about a "round robin" format, Keygen. In other words, instead of having one game with 3 teams (6 players), he is suggesting that 3 games with 2 teams (4 players) might be better. So the 3 games would be Acol vs CGN, Acol vs Apolyton, Apolyton vs CGN.

The suggestion has merit, in the sense that it is purer. 3-team games tend to be more complex. On the other hand, a 3-team game will tend to favour the weaker teams, since they will band together for the first part of the game (if they have any sense!)

	23-05-2001 00:55									#14
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I see Misotu...
Well, it would be a solution but better stick in the three teams per game, at list the one I am going to join.

The problem is that we have only 4 players willing to join so far.
CGN has already 6 players available and from the very best probably .
ACOL haven't gathered more than us yet, only 3 so far.

We can start a couple of games as soon as ACOL finds one more player and when more players are found we can start 1-2 more games.

	23-05-2001 01:07									#15
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Hold up a bit! Believe it or not, a lot of people are reluctant to come forward crying "I'm one of the best so put me on the team!"

That's one of the big advantages of having a captain/committee to draw up a short-list and then approach players to see if they would be willing to participate.

Regarding Big_C's suggestion, I don't mind being the third member of a committee, if that would help. If there's someone better suited than me, then that would be fine too, I've only been around just over a year so there are older hands than me here, like TigToad and Flo.

Googlie, Tau, would you guys be willing to do the committee thing?

	23-05-2001 02:27									#16
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So we've got more than 4 players? Nice!!

It is time to start thinking of an "intersite" commitee that will make the rules.
Some in ACOL wants all the "dirty" tricks ON except of cource the very obvious cheats .

	25-05-2001 01:19									#17
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I'm of two minds.

One part of me says ....... let's have a full scale inter-forums tourney (along the lines of Qantaga's Ryder Cup suggestion - of course it would appeal to the golfer in me ... - but maybe a Presidents/Ryder cup triple format).

Would need at least six players from each forum. Each player on the 1 - 6 singles list would play (a 2 faction deathmatch?? - a 2 human/5 AI match??) their respective counterpart on each of the other 2 forums list.

3 pairs play their respectively ranked pairs of the other 2 forums, no AI

2 triples play their counterparts in each of the other 2 forums in the ultimate team game, no AI

Thus the maximum number of games any one individual would play would be 5 ( 2 singles against the same ranked player in the other 2 forums; 1 x 3 pair games against their ranked peers in the other 2 forums, and 2 triples, one against each forum's same ranked triple.

Same map, same start positions, so that the necessary invidious comparisons and gloatings can have meaning

the other part of me says .............. That's a heck of a lot of work and time consumed. What started out as an e-mail by Keygen to find a partner and a couple of players in the two other forums for a pick-up game just grew like Topsy when words like the best and representing Aployton started getting bandied about.

My inclination is to step to one side and say "Good luck, Keygen. I hope someday you get to play that game you dreamt about."

But ..... of course, .....if drafted, I will serve 'on the Committee thing', and CMN and whatever (even play, if one of the 3 forums needs a final team member, as I am fairly active in all 3, as are Misotu and mark13)



G..

	30-05-2001 03:13									#18
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Bump and status report.

Acol is ready with two teams. That seems to be max that can be mustered.

CGN has 6 players lined up getting teamed right now.

Poly ? Anyone still interested here?

At Acol there were lenghthy discussions about rules and format etc.

thread is here for those interested: http://www.planetacol.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000126.html

if I get it right here you have

Keygen
Misotu
Big_Canuk

I guess more will apply if you announce a bit.

To get it moving I suggest as follows:

Googlie (in co-op with others as he wishes/can arrange decides, rules, map etc.) His (their) word is law (or we never get anywhere). I think he can be trusted to be biforumoriented :B: .

Each forum arranges play-offs, winners from each forum meet each other.

A date for the inter-forum matches is set (if all are ready before it of course can start earlier of course). By that date a representative team must be found.

Winners meet each other playing three team-team or one team-team-team match.

Alternative:

We go directly inter-forum.

I imagine something like dividing into three groups. Two groups with a team from each forum, one (if Acol does not come up with another team) with just a team from CGN and Poly.

Every team plays everyone else in group.

Winners of each group goes on. Winner is decided from most victories (if there is more than one game). If there is a tie - earliest victory beats later victory.

The winner of each group - play the other winners. Final Victor decided same way.

Personally I prefer the play off scheme - main downfall is the time factor. The alternative of going directly inter-forum will however also require a play off of some sort or a pre-selection of a team (which is not much fun).

The in-each-forum playoff has the added advantage that each forum can decide how to arrange it - only it needs to be done so that it will realistically meet a time limit.

I don't know exactly what is realistic for a four player game. Aiming for a turn a day I guess it should not go longer than around 150 days. If there is special reason CMN must adjudicate if a delay can be accepted.

This of course means that the Forum-War-Champ-Team will not be found one of the next days, but then - this is PBEM and I don't see a much quicker scheme except the "team selection by comittee" which I personally think will leave most forum attendees rather un-involved.

Personally I will find it much easier to cheer the team that beat me in the play-offs that one that was selected by whatever criteria.

Anyway, is there still interest here?

	30-05-2001 10:16									#19
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And a bump of my side. They probably just forgot.

	01-06-2001 03:56									#20
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Hobbes and I are joining forces as ACOL's third team.

So I won't be able to adjudicate/CMN/be a committee of 1 etc.

Plus, Apolyton needs a third team, I believe

Rynn (Googlie)

	01-06-2001 14:36									#21
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Alright Googlie

Misotu could find a third team as she had made some contacts with other players.

The Apolyton teams are so far:

1. Misotu-Big_Canuk
2. Keygen-Stuntman19

	02-06-2001 02:02									#22
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Okey dokey. I'll give it a go.

	02-06-2001 03:20									#23
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I've had an email from DilithiumDad saying that he would be interested in being part of the 'Poly squad. Just need to find out whether he has a team-mate lined up ...

	04-06-2001 17:25									#24
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Hm, I hope he did found a teammate .

	05-06-2001 22:27									#25
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OK - almost underway.

JSchwab is replacing me at ACOL, so I'll CMN the matches, referee, etc. etc.)

Teams:

Match #1

ACOL: Fistandantilus & SMAniaC
Poly: Keygen & Stuntman19
CGN: Scipio & Provost

Match #2

ACOL: Mose & JAMiAM
Poly: Misotu & big_canuk
CGN: mark13 & Buster

Match #3

ACOL: Hobbes & JSchwab
Poly: Dilithium Dad & TBA
CGN: Blarney & Gusto

I suggest I work with Mark, Misotu & Mose to formulate such rules as there will be, does everyone play the same factions, etc.

Comments?

	06-06-2001 20:49									#26
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Concept we're mulling over is for a 9 game simultaneous series, with each team playing 3 matches which would pit them against all 3 teams of the other forums, thus:

(where A=ACOL, C=CGN and P=Poly)

A1 vs C1 vs P1
A2 vs C2 vs P2
A3 vs C3 vs P3

(That's the set up that was outlined a few posts above)

Simultaneously:

A1 vs C2 vs P3
A2 vs C3 vs P1
A3 vs C1 vs P2

and:

A1 vs C3 vs P2
A2 vs C1 vs P3
A3 vs C2 vs P1

This would be a very viable way to identify the winning forum. If there is a tie, then a playoff could take place.

There should be no restrictions on faction choice. In fact, as these will be scenario-developed games, if 2 or even all 3 teams wanted the same factions that could be accommodated - indeed all 6 players could play as the PKs (or whatever) if that were really wanted - just a bit more work to set up)

The 3M Committee are in discussions now to finalize format, rules, etc.

Dilithium Dad:

You have multiple applicants for a partner (or you might have independently canvassed and found your own) - any thoughts?

Googlie

	08-06-2001 20:58									#27
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Dilithium Dad and me are game.

Most suggestions sound valid.
I do not like (read: abhor) the idea of playing *3* new simultaneous games. SMAC is a hobby, not a profession.
I don't need to tell anyone how much time is spent with a single turn, say, round 120, with a decently developed faction against competent opponents. Please reconsider. 3 games/team ought to be enough. Opinions from the other participants ?

	08-06-2001 22:06									#28
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Flo:

Your protestations are falling on deaf ears (you're talking to one who is in 25 PBEMs)



(But I'm just the CMN, not the Format & Rules Committee)

Seriously, though, you have a valid point. I survive on abround 2 hours a day, on average and I know I don't do all games full justice, hurrying through those where I have fallen hopelessly behind, and micrmanaging the others where I have a lead or am close to it.

And that's with DSL. For a couple of months in the winter I was on dial-up modem, and was taking around four hours an evening to get through some 20 or so games. Of course, half the time was waiting for 'Poly to load so that I could post the turns - I eventually just stopped posting them.

But the big advantage of each team playing three games is that every team plays every other team in the other forums, and doesn't play any other team twice. That's really a true test of skill, rather than just a single team game against a pair of pairs who, for whatever reason, might be having an off game.

But, as I say, I'm not playing, so it is easy for me to say.

Whatever

G.

	08-06-2001 23:43									#29
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I realise that this probably isn't the right thread but I too I'm playing multiple games and what takes the most time (at least at this early stage) is posting to the boards. Two suggestions..

1) Is it possible (or can it be made possible) to email to a thread so you can do it all offline and send it when you connect

2) Reduce the 45 second waiting between posts. I find if I upload a number of turns I have to wait for this restriction to clear.

Just a few ideas....

	09-06-2001 04:40									#30
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SITS ... although this isn't the right place for it (as you recognised), I'm sympathetic Apolyton has a forum specifically for this kind of comment, can't remember the name but it's obvious when you look for it and it's worth repeating your post there.

Googlie/Flo: Regarding the 3 games at once thing, yeah I know. But I really think this is the fairest way. I'm in far too many games right now and am praying for some to finish so I'm not deaf to Flo.

But ... on the upside ... Flo, we are talking *six player* games here. Dunno what your experience has been, but mine is that six-player games turn roughly every 2 to 3 days, and that's when people are dedicated. I'm in a couple of games with 6 people that turn twice a month. So I honestly don't think it's as bad as you fear.

However, there are ways round this. Googlie, as CMN, I assume you wouldn't have a problem with staggering the start dates? That way we could kick off just one game per team, and see how it goes. If the progress is fairly slow, kicking off a second round might be OK, and then the third. We could poll everyone and see how it's going before kicking off a further round.

Not trying to pressurise anyone. Maybe just suck it and see?