 |
| |
|
|
CyberShy
|
 |
Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:14
|
|
Welcome in the City Improvements Thread.
To make clear what this Thread is about:
City Improvements
New ideas about possible things that improve a city
This means we talk about things you can only change IN the city-window, but has nothing to do with trade, economy, food, science or whatever else, and it has nothing to do with wonders and units as well. Just clear about City Improvements.
========================
Explanation about this Thread:
At the top I've posted 2 postings myself,
this one, and one that will be updated every day. The 2nd one is the most important one, since that one will contain in a clear way all the suggestions that are done so far in this Thread.
You can post new ideas and discuss them below, and I'll order them all in the 2nd post. This will give a clear overview to this Thread, and if you need more details, then just read the entire Thread.
Have fun, and be aware of the importance of this discussion !!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
CyberShy
|
|
Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:14
|
|
<H3>List of Current City Improvements:<H5>
Baracks
Granary
Palace
City Walls
Temple
Library
Courthouse
Marketplace
Aqueduct
Colosseum
Harbor
University
Bank
Cathedral
Power Plant
Stock Exchange
Sewer System
Port Facility
Coastal Fortress
Super Highways
Factory
Airport
Mass Transit
Hydro Plant
Police Station
Recycling Center
Supermarket
Nuclear Plant
SAM Missile Battery
Offshore Platform
SDI Defense
Research Lab
Solar Plant
Manufacturing Plant
Ordered by purpose [MBD's idea]
Food
Granary, Aqueduct, Harbor, Sewer System, Supermarket
Defense
Baracks, City Walls, Coastal Fortress, SAM Missile Battery, SDI Defense
Science
Library, University, Research Lab
Money / luxerious / Economy
Marketplace, Bank, Stock Exchange, Super Highways, Palace, Courthouse
Production
Power Plant, Factory, Hydro Plant, Nuclear Plant, Offshore Platform, Solar Plant, Manufacturing Plant
Hapiness
Cathedral, Colosseum, Temple
Special
Recycling Center, Police Station, Mass Transit, Airport, Port Facility,
<hr>
<hr>
<H3>List of ideas for new Improvements:<H5>
Theater [EnochF]
City Clock [EnochF]
Hospital [EnochF]
Cinema [EnochF]
Pharmacy [EnochF]
Television [EnochF]
Security Monitor [EnochF]
Fusion Plant [EnochF]
Base Support Structures [Trachmyr] <== read more under the 'new ideas' section
Pastuerization Plant (Adds 25% to total food due to the reduction in losses to spoilage.) [Sieve Too]
Pesticide Plant (Adds another 25% to total food but increases pollution) [Sieve Too]
Doctors house [to the already suggested Pharmacy and Hospital. A series of three related improvements.] [Ralph]
City Park [Benefit: Makes one addional citizen content. Requires: Sanitation (Maybe a new advance, something like Modern Fertilizer) Cost: 60 shields Maint: 1 gold]
Theme Park [Benefit: Two citizens happy. One additional gold for every 4 population. Plus 5 gold for every wonder in city(tourism). Requires: Mass Media advance(if Mass Media advance not in game then Electronics), Cost: 240 shields, Maint: 4 gold
Transmitter [Benefit: Makes two citizens content(by distraction). With the advent of Mass Media(Electronics if Mass Media not in game) provides one additional gold for every two citizens(advertising). Requires: Radio, Cost: 120 shields, Maint: 2 gold
ISP [Benefit: Plus 20% science in city. Plus 2 science for every other city with an ISP, including cities in other civs.
Requires: Computer, Cost: 160 shields, Maint: 3 gold] [ALL above by HarryKattz]
Medieval Fairs
forge
textile mill/loom
suburbs
highways,
public schools
parks
circus [all by wheathin]
Bomb Shelter [Protects citizens from artiliery attacks, missle attacks, and bombing runs from aircraft. Prevents the city from going down in population from these attacks.] [Travathian]
Stationary units (Possibly custom-designed) [Isle]
SECURITY STATIONS [(automatic genetic and/or fingerprint identification when accessing city areas/buildings everywhere): automatically "detects" spies within city limits and may have a chance of making them fail. Spies may later gain an ability to have a chance to be hidden from security stations and decrease their fail chances.] [Freddz]
<hr>
<hr>
<H3>List of other /new ideas<H5>
Make improvements that belong to a nation or a religion or a gouvernament. [CyberShy]
examples:
# Muslim nations will never be allowed to build churches.
# Temples only work till 500 AD
# Communism disalbes churches / temples. (till another gouvernament is chosen)
# Wind Mills are typicall dutch improvements
# Mc Donalds has double the impact in the USA then in other countries etc. etc.
<hr>
I'd resuggest in this new thread that the player be allowed to build miltiples of certain improvements [within limits, of course], with diminishing returns for subsequent iterations. [Druid2]
examples:
[lab = +100% ... lab*2 = +180% ... lab*3 = +%230% .. max build of "n".. which is set in a modifiable parameter file]
In addition to this idea: In big cities, more than one improvement of one type should be needed. I don't think there was only one Granary in ancient Rome. [Ecce Homo]
In addition to this idea: each new building of the same type will have a reduced effect, let's say 25% less than the previous one. Suppose you built 3 stables, then the first one builds a cavalry regiment using 100 shields, the second using 125 shields, the third using 150 shields. Some improvements, such as aqueducts and sewer systems, should not be able to build multiple times [Transcend]
In addition to this idea: Give cities the option to build multiple improvements when they become bigger. City of 10 can have 1 Marketplace, city of 18 can hae 2 Marketplaces, city of 26 can have 3 marketplaces etc.etc. [CyberShy]
In addition to this idea: 1 Granary in a 8 people city works 100% but one granary in a 9+ city works 70% and one Granary in a 15+ city works 50%. Now you're forced to build a 2nd Granary when your city become 9. [CyberShy]
<hr>
That city improvements that effect science be dedicated to a technology category and the benefit gained through that improvement can only be applied to that category (or could be changed with a penalty.) [Zorloc]
<hr>
Base Support Structures... a new city improvement
This Improvement includes ALL of the CRITICAL structures of PAST under a single name and structure, including all the benefits of it. The old buildings will be replaced, and the upkeep costs will be low. Auto upgrade or build upgrades when you move to a new age. (read more below in Trackmyr's post] [Trachmyr]
<hr>
There seems to be some general agreement with the suggestion that some unit chassis and weapons require improvements to be built before the unit itself can be done.
In this case, extra city improvements will be needed in order to produce units - about 15 - 20 new structures need to be designed (spanning the whole of history, though). [Shining1]
<hr>
City improvements must become inactive when technology gets better. (like wonders don't work forever) and be replaced with others. [CyberShy]
<hr>
Allow cities (or require) to increase effectiveness in a few abstract aeras.
1) Food Production/Storage
2) Industry
3) Religion
4) Entertainment
5) Defence
6) Health
7) ect.
you can then chose to "Increase Industry Infrastructure"... which will give a bounus based on:
(level of industy) - (city size)) * percentage increase of all indusstry city improvements [Trachmyr]
<hr>
Reduce The Number of Improvements
CivI had a reasonable number of improvements, and it was still a management nightmare IMHO to "max out" a city. In Civ2 I rarely even bother any more because there's just a never-ending list of gotta-haves. [Mark_Everson]
<hr>
My idea: As a city grows, the player may get messages like "A private enterprise applies to build a Factory in London". You cannot take use of privately owned buildings' production, but they will give you tax income. [Ecce Homo]
<hr>
More ancient improvements are needed,
How about public bathes like in Ancient Greece and Rome? Burial grounds, which become modern day cemetaries? In feudal times you had keeps, which watched over the surrounding area, these could be similar to a Headquarters, but not quite as powerful.[Travathian]
<hr>
A city can select the percentage of its resources that go into each area (e.g. science, money, happiness, ect.). New technologies(e.g. Banking, Scientific Thought, ect) would increase the effect that the same amount of resources have, perhaps with a temporary decrease to simulate improving the current facilities. This would allow more realistic cities, instead of cities that do everything, you would have a science city, with alot of research, a industrial city with a high production, ect. It would also be easier to manage [Blue Moose]
<hr>
I dont like multi-boosting improvements which boost both energy AND research, or both research AND happiness. Keep things simple.
Part of the fun in building city-improvements in CIV-2 was that i always had an exact overview what each and every improvement added to the overall picture. If we start to mess things up with multiple- and multi-boost city-improvements, that exact overview easily gets lost. [Ralph]
<hr>
Population growth is affected not only by available food, but also by birth rates and death rates. Thus, there should be improvements that reflect this. At the least, things such as the Aqueduct, Drug Store/Pharmacy, and Hospital in CtP should have a large effect on maximum city size, an effect that could be generated by having them result in increased food (paradoxical in that more old people would eat *more* food, but it is as close a representation as we can get). [wheathin]
<hr>
allow upgrades, with the existing improvement counting for 50% of the cost of the new improvement. [Wheathin]
<hr>
a. decreasing costs for improvements - as the game progresses, while established cities have much higher production levels, newly founded cities take forever to get up to speed. If the costs dropped each era, (maybe with a multiplier, and each imp has an "era" variable) it'd be easierfor your cities founded in the 1800's (like most of America) to be worthwhile before 2100.
b. Rollover on the build queue - production that's leftover is applied to the next item built... important with:
c. Allow multiple builds in one turn - so these cheap but needed imps can be finished quickly.
d. "Packages" of cheap imps for later in the game, all built one after another. (In effect, readymade queues of items) Thus, by the modern era, an "ancient package" might include Granary, Marketplace, Church, Courthouse, Colisseum, Aqueduct, Sewer, Library, Public School, and Barracks. By selecting this single "package item" in the build queue, a newly founded city could build all the ancient imps in 2-4 short turns, thus saving a player lots of needless clicks and micromanagement, and time. [Wheathin]
<hr>
I would like to be able to contract a CORPORATION to build my units, let the religions build their places of worship and leave me the task of keeping the city safe, clean and happy [CormacMacArt]
<hr>
I would like to see more governance type improvements, and less general type [NotLikeTea]
<hr>
As governer, we should be building the millitary structures (city walls, baraks, etc), public services (grainaries, aquaducts, etc) and that's pretty well it. Other improvements should be controled only second hand, by influencing religions, city planners, etc. [NotLikeTea]
<hr>
Stationary long range units as a land improvement would be cool: a unit that fire automatically when hostile units approaches.
[Freddz]
<hr>
<hr>
<H3>List of new purposes / names for old improvements<H5>
Superhighways ==> Shopping Mall / Mall / Downtown / Commercial Centre [VaderTwo]
use the highways as an option in the roads/terraforming area instead [VaderTwo]
I'm in favour of retaining all CivII structures, though possibly in a somewhat modified state [Shining1]
Granary should be made obsolete by some tech and they can all(or some) be upgraded to something more modern. [Depp]
# In addition: Change the graphics for the granary at higher techs. [HarryKattz]
citywalls should limit city size to 6 or something [Depp]
# in addition: increase maintenance costs for city walls by 1 gold for every three population over 12. This would represent the drag on distribution caused by bottleneck gates and the expense of letting out the seams as the city grows. [HarryKattz]
<hr>
<hr>
<H3>List of people involved with this thread<H5>
CyberShy
MBD
Druid2
Zorloc
Mo (please some more explanation)
EnochF
VaderTwo
Ecco Homo
Trachmyr
Sieve Too
Transcend
Shining1
Mark_Everson
Travathian
Ralph
Depp
Blue Moose
HarryKattz
wheathin
CormacMacArt
Isle
NotLikeTea
Freddz
[This message has been edited by CyberShy (edited May 26, 1999).]
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MBD
|
|
I think it might help if you took the current list of city improvements and broke it down according to the purpose of each building (like granary and aqueduct are for city population growth.) That way you can get a sense of where additions or changes are needed.
I'd also like to be able to "look" at each city in a simplified 3-d way at any time in the game.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Zorloc
|
|
Seattle, WA, US
Jan 1970
time: 05:14
|
|
I proposed this in the Tech section:
That city improvements that effect science be dedicated to a technology category and the benefit gained through that improvement can only be applied to that category (or could be changed with a penalty.)
This matches well with Druid2's multiple improvement's proposal.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mo
|
|
I would still include the library and university which would help all fields. The new improvements should be cheaper or/and have a greater affect than the library or university. This would balance it out. Also you would have to be allowed to research more than one technology at one time. This would make sure that your improvments don't go to waste while you are researching a different field.
Look at the technology thread, it also touches on those topics.
[This message has been edited by Mo (edited May 20, 1999).]
|
|
| |
|
|
|
I would change the name of the Superhighways to either Shopping Mall or Mall or Downtown or Commercial Centre, etc. and use the highways an option in the roads/terraforming area instead.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ecce Homo
|
|
Stockholm, Sweden
Apr 1999
time: 06:14
|
|
MULTIPLE IMPROVEMENTS: In big cities, more than one improvement of one type should be needed. I don't think there was only one Granary in ancient Rome.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Trachmyr
|
 |
The Everglades
May 1999
time: 00:14
|
|
I posted this in OTHER, but it was not picked up, nor was there any real feedback. So I'll post it again.
Base Support Structures... a new city improvement
This Improvement includes ALL of the CRITICAL structures of PAST ages (Ancient, Bronze, Iron, ect.) under a single name and structure.
This would include stuff like: Granaries, Aqueducts, Markets, ect. But NOT barracks and other more specailized or optional structures.
This structure will give all the advantages of included buildings (and replaces those buildings), but at reduced upkeep cost
This structure will AUTO upgrade when you enter a new AGE if you have built all included structures of the previous age. Otherwise you may pay for the diffrence, or build the upgrade (labor required depends on how many structures have been completed).
This structure builds much faster than if building all of the componets. And you can RUSH BUY at no penalty.
The result is, that in the middle and especially the late game, you don't have to fumble about building arhaic structures. You will be able to found and develop a thriving city, without the need for that city to have been there from the beginning. Personally I hate building Granaries in the 1900's.
You MUST still build structures of your CURRENT AGE or you WILL fall behind. Waiting for the AGE to evolve would also be a poor tactic.
Tell me what you think...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sieve Too
|
|
New Hampshire, USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:14
|
|
New improvement: Pastuerization Plant. What does it do? Adds 25% to total food due to the reduction in losses to spoilage.
Also, Pesticide Plant: Adds another 25% to total food but increases pollution.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Transcend
|
 |
Boulder, Colorado, USA
Apr 1999
time: 22:14
|
|
Lots of wonderful improvements. However, they can only be once per city. It is more realistic that you should be able to build the same improvements multiple times in the city. Everyone knows that city like Rome have dozens of temples, or that New York have hundreds of supermarkets(market places). In Civ3, each new building of the same type will have a reduced effect, let's say 25% less than the previous one. Suppose you built 3 stables, then the first one builds a cavalry regiment using 100 shields, the second using 125 shields, the third using 150 shields. Some improvements, such as aqueducts and sewer systems, should not be able to build multiple times. Someone introduced the idea of region already. I think multiple city improvements would that scheme perfectly.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Shining1
|
|
Christchurch, New Zealand
Apr 1999
time: 05:14
|
|
Some points:
There seems to be some general agreement with the suggestion that some unit chassis and weapons require improvements to be built before the unit itself can be done.
In this case, extra city improvements will be needed in order to produce units - about 15 - 20 new structures need to be designed (spanning the whole of history, though).
Aside from that, I'm in favour of retaining all CivII structures, though possibly in a somewhat modified state.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
SnowFire
|
 |
New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:14
|
|
"Make improvements that belong to a nation or a religion or a gouvernament."
"Muslim nations will never be allowed to build churches."
What the? Ever heard of a mosque? Are you trying to say that Islam is less able to content their followers than other cultures? I'm not Islamic, but if I was, I'd be offended. Besides, what place does this have in a civilization game? The "cathedral" represents high religion in any culture and in any religion. There are no pre-set cultures and religions in Civ, that is all kept in the background. The other things are horribly sterotypical as well. The one thing I agree with is communism disabling churches, and I would only halve their effect myself (in return for much easier police control over people), because that's not a culture thing, that's a government thing.
"In addition to this idea: In big cities, more than one improvement of one type should be needed. I don't think there was only one Granary in ancient Rome."
Reminds me of a really bad game called Destiny. These things are abstractions. Just as a "chariot" doesn't represent one chariot, but rather an army, a granary does not represent just one granary. The "second level" is the job of things like acqueducts and sewer systems. By the way, in Destiny, you had to keep going back and building tons of old structures over and over again. No fun.
"City improvements must become inactive when technology gets better. (like wonders don't work forever) and be replaced with others. CyberShy"
I disagree with this. They may change their roles, but they should not become obsolete, except in perhaps a few rare cases.
Also, for us non-CTPers, what the devil do all those other improvements do? I'd be most impressed as to why I should be building a "City Clock" when you'd think that would go on at a far less micromanaging level.
I suggest you check out the technology forum as well. My suggestion is that you take the basic library (or equivalent), and you dedicate it to any of the 5 disciplines when it's built (I have a category system where all science is divided into 5 categories). When you build your university, you add another discipline to focus in. These two categories of science get special bonuses in research at the city. Id kill the "research lab" of CivII and then add extra attributes to conventional facilities, like "Nuclear Power Plant: (Basic effect with resources.) Speeds physics research in city, if it has a library or university dedicated to it, by 50%. Or "Stock Market: (basic money effect). Increases economics research by 50%, if city is dedicated to that discipline." "Capitol: Government center, blah blah. Increases philosophy research by 100% in city." "Hospital: Increases population growth by 15%, makes two drones content. Increases biology research in city by 25% if yada yada yada." You get the idea.
Which reminds me. Considering that Sid just worked on SMAC and not CTP, I think we should base our suggestions more off of SMAC or CivII as a model than CTP.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Ecce Homo
|
|
Stockholm, Sweden
Apr 1999
time: 06:14
|
|
I have made some suggestion about a "Capitalist AI" that can build improvements instead of the player.
My idea: As a city grows, the player may get messages like "A private enterprise applies to build a Factory in London". You cannot take use of privately owned buildings' production, but they will give you tax income.
I believe this can decrease micromanagement in the late game.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Travathian
|
|
Chandler, AZ, USA
May 1999
time: 21:14
|
|
This is my first post here, but I thought I would start by saying all of the new ideas for city improvements look great, except for one thing, they have all been developed in the past 100 years or less. Definitely in need of more in the ancient and mideval time frames.
How about public bathes like in Ancient Greece and Rome? Burial grounds, which become modern day cemetaries? In feudal times you had keeps, which watched over the surrounding area, these could be similar to a Headquarters, but not quite as powerful.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Darkstar
|
 |
Huntsville, AL, USA
May 1999
time: 23:14
|
|
The part where Destiny messed up the most was that you had to maintain the education level throughout your empire to do research. Instead, cities should have simply not have been able to research the top level items until their education quotient came up to specs. But yeah, it was an accounting nightmare.
I'd nix the "You can build it again." Idea. It really does lead to accounting and supermicromanagement. We want to have fun.
As noted, there has been several suggestions to tie military chassis types to city improvements. ala MOM. One more thing to slow down the War Monger, but Civ was a Building an Empire game first, so that isn't a bad idea. If it is tied into variable city production radius, you gain things like:
Horse Stables/Ranch: +1 Produciton Radius, permits the building of Horse Chassis units (Mounted Scout, Horse Archers, etc)
But lets keep down the supermicromanagemetn and accounting/spreadsheet game issues...
-Darkstar
(Knight Errant Of Spam)
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ralph
|
|
Stockholm - Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 05:14
|
|
Why not add a new series of purpose-related buildings in order to battle HEALTH? The health-factor should be fleshed out considerably in CIV-3.
Add Doctors house (or whatever) to the already suggested Pharmacy and Hospital. A series of three related improvements.
The effects of the health-improvements should cumulative just as Marketplace Bank Stock Exchange.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
HarryKattz
|
|
Ft Worth, TX, US
May 1999
time: 05:14
|
|
City Walls
City walls are no protection against artillery, aircraft, or missile. That's pretty close to obsolete.
As a final nail in the coffin, maybe we could ask Firaxis to increase maintenance costs for city walls by 1 gold for every three population over 12. This would represent the drag on distribution caused by bottleneck gates and the expense of letting out the seams as the city grows.
I don't think city walls should limit population.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
HarryKattz
|
|
Ft Worth, TX, US
May 1999
time: 05:14
|
|
Granary
There are still at least two large granaries(we call them silos) here in Ft Worth.
Maybe we should ask Firaxis to change the graphics for the granary at higher techs.
Also, I'm for the Shining1's idea that certain improvements are needed to build certain kinds of units. Like stables for mounted units, airports for planes, etc.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
HarryKattz
|
|
Ft Worth, TX, US
May 1999
time: 05:14
|
|
Perhaps we should ask Firaxis to include a...
City Park
City land set aside for use by the public.
Benefit: Makes one addional citizen content.
Requires: Sanitation (Maybe a new advance, something like Modern Fertilizer)
Cost: 60 shields
Maint: 1 gold
Helps happiness in a pinch. Frees up a citizen for science or tax.
Requiring something early, like Sanitation could cause a balance problem.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
HarryKattz
|
|
Ft Worth, TX, US
May 1999
time: 05:14
|
|
Maybe we should ask Firaxis to include a...
Theme Park
Large parks like Disney World or Six Flags.
Benefit: Two citizens happy. One additional gold for every 4 population. Plus 5 gold for every wonder in city(tourism).
Requires: Mass Media advance(if Mass Media advance not in game then Electronics)
Cost: 240 shields
Maint: 4 gold
Only helps in large cities. Expensive enough that you will not build it unless you need to.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
HarryKattz
|
|
Ft Worth, TX, US
May 1999
time: 05:14
|
|
City Clock
In my opinion, this should stay over in CTP. Before clocks, roosters would wake people up. Just seems so trivial.
I think we should ask Firaxis to ignore it.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:14.
Apolyton Time is 00:14. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
20-05-1999 22:10
. And I'd had such high hopes for it... It was amazing, they screwed up virtually every area of the game!
)
|
|