19-05-1999 19:16									#1
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A new beginning...
First, I'm totally against cheats.
And that's why this thread could be very important. The latest Civ with MP has many problems. There are just so many things you can do that most people would consider blantant cheating. I'm sure AC and CTP have the same problems. These cheats occur because the designers just didn't think how some people might abuse or stretch the rules.

I see the purpose of this thread as an opportunity to review all the cheats that we currently know. Let's make sure that any new version of Civ is designed by people who know HOW we are currently abusing their games so they can design some protections in. Granted, any new game will have it's problems, and people will find ways to abuse the rules. But, by pointing out some of the things they have failed to correct in the past, maybe they will be more careful in the future. Now, we know that this will be a whole new game, and many of the features or ways of doing things will hopefully be changed. So, many of these may not even matter in the new game. But again, lets tell them how the current rules are being abused. Our insights can only help when they are figuring out how to do things right.
So let's help them to design a game that has far less loop holes to begin with.

Here is a summary of what has been discussed so far:

PEAKING AT THE MAP
In CIV MP, you can load a net game as a regular game and use the scenario editor to bypass any password and view the entire map.
This can be done during a game if you have two computers, or between sessions
POTENTIAL SOLUTION
Just do what they do with the cheat menu.
If there is any civ passworded, it will not allow you to use the cheat menu. This shouldn't hamper scenario designers, because they wouldn't use any passwords while designing a scenario.

INFINITE MOVEMENT TRICK
In MP, if you give a unit to somebody after you move it, and he gives it back, it can move again. This can be repeated so any unit can move as much as you would like.
SOLUTION
Make is so a unit can only move once in any given year/turn

AIRBASES
Airbases provide additional shields and food when built within a city radius. They are also instant rails. Plus, they can be put in a line to stop enemy air units and nukes from getting through.
SOLUTION
Make sure they don't provide any extra's. Make people build roads/rails in the same square if they want the movement bonus.
Allow enemy units to fly over airbases - put an option on the comand menu that allows for landing or attack.

COVERING GROUND UNITS WITH BOMBERS
This makes the stack impervious to ground attack since ground units can't strike the bomber.
SOLUTION
There have many solutions proposed for this one, and it really depends on what combat system will be used in the new game. We just want them to be aware of this, so they don't make the same mistake again.

HOME CARAVAN TRICK
You can reassign a caravan to any home city by using the city menu instead of the command menu. It says in the rules you can't do this.
SOLUTION
In MP mode, this has been fixed. Vs the AI, you can still do it. (unless they fixed that in the latest patch) Again, who knows how trade will work in the new game. The point here is that if you say something can't be done in the rules, check out all menues that allow for such an action to make sure you have caught them all.

SHIP CHAINING
By using multiple ships, you can move a unit around the world in one turn. (that's realistic)
SOLUTION
One solution was to disallow any transfer of a unit from ship to ship. This might not be the best solution because there are legitimate reasons beyond chip chaining to do this. Again, they should be aware that this type of cheat has been available to us in the past and should be checked in the new game.

THE FOOD CARAVAN TRICK
This is when you can send multiple food caravans from the same city to the same city, and only still have one food trade route estabished. (only -1 per turn, but the target city gets a full food bin or new pop for every caravan arriving)
SOLUTION
Again, who knows how trade will work in the new game. But again, if something like caravans are used, they should check out what happens when multiple caravans are sent from the same location to the same location.

RUSH BUYING UNITS IN A STEP PROCESS TO SAVE MONEY
I don't see this as a cheat. But since it doesn't work that way for city improvements (a correction made from civI to civII) some claim that it is.
SOLUTION
Again, who knows... just be consistant, or point out that the option is available.

That covers what was discussed already in the other thread. Let's hear some more. I need your help.

We ask that if this is the first time you post to the thread, please start you post with that fact.
We are keeping a list of all those that contribute to our threads, and that would make life easier on us.
The Following People have already posted suggestions:
Ecce Homo
EnochF
Carolus Rex
Theben

Again, thanks for your help!
Let's roll!

	20-05-1999 09:36									#2
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Infinite City Sleaze (ICS)

This needs to be eliminated. Since a city works (size + 1) squares the most efficient pattern is to keep your cities small, build settlers and military units. It is quite easy to conquer the world very quickly, even in MP.

Solution: Number of squares worked is equal to city size (no bonus).

	20-05-1999 00:56									#3
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Hey Ming, can you think of a way to counteract the strategy of building a wonder and then destroying it for the sake of denying its effects to other civs?

I mention this because the concept of wonders which benefit many civs is becoming more popular on my thread, including an Internet wonder which provides a Great Library effect for every civilization with the Computers advance.

But if you're the #1 nation and you build Internet in a dinky size-1 city and then disband... you've denied the Internet to the whole world, makes no sense.

	20-05-1999 01:08									#4
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From a players point of view, I don't know how to stop somebody from doing this...(yet)
However, it can be done with programming.
Let's say they make it so once a wonder is built, it's effects don't go away (unless made obsolete). The problem with this is, is that it takes a away a key strategy of destroying another civs city with wonders to deny him of their use. Maybe only the All Civ wonders can have this "tag" built into the program... good question!

	20-05-1999 01:46									#5
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Variants on ship chaining:

1) Requires two ports on different continents which are less than one turn's movement apart for a transport. Move a unit into city A (which has a transport waiting). Sleep the unit. Move the transport to city B; the unit wakes up and has unexpended movement points available. Bug or feature? Note that this gives near-infinite movement with railroads.

2) A closely related trick: move a unit into a city, expending *all* of its movement points. Go to the city display, sleep the unit. Now you can move it some more with a ship.

Intelligence issues:

3) You can always see barbies moving through territory you've explored. If they are attacked by a foreign unit, that unit appears while it's attacking, although you normally wouldn't be able to see it.

4) When your unit is adjacent to an enemy unit and you try to move to a new square that is also adjacent to an (unseen) enemy unit, the unseen unit becomes visible.

5) I never thought to do this, but I've seen people talk about finding foreign cities with the "find city" command (or maybe the trade "demand" feature?).

	20-05-1999 10:47									#6
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First time posting on this thread.

Does the Repeated Commodity Trade strategy strike you as something that should be eliminated? Is it covered by the Anti-Homing suggestion?

How about fortifying a city unit who just fought? You can't do it outside the city. (Maybe this can be rationalized because it is inside the city.)

The following may not be a cheat, but simply poor conceptualizing: should cruise missiles be allowed to patrol like a fighter plane, then return to the base?

	20-05-1999 14:01									#7
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The turbo settler/engineer.

"Charging" the unit by letting it perform some task, interrupt the process, move the unit elsewhere and continue the same task there. All the work done in the first square carries over to the second.

Bug or feature?

Carolus

	20-05-1999 18:36									#8
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Let's see...
DaveV first
1) Bug or feature? who knows what they intended. And that's the point. The documantaion they provide gives no clue to the answer. So the solution to this is for them to provide better documantion. I know they want to leave some mysteries to make the game more enjoyable, but movement is key to the game and should be addressed.
2) I actually like this feature, but again, who knows whether that was planned or not. One way around this problem would be to not allow a unit to be put to sleep after it's movement has been used period!(just like what happens on the board) It is indeed inconsistant that you can do it with the city menu. Again, as with the home caravan trick, they need to make sure that all the menus that allow a command our consistant.
3)Seems to me more of a personal opinion.
I think we all want to be able to see barbarians... whether we should be able to see a unit that attacks them? Unless everybody were to feel strongly one way on this point, does it really matter? I don't know?
4) This is indeed needed, so you can see why you can't move a unit. What other option is there?
5) Yes, using these methodes to find cities need to be addressed. In addition, you can just randomly click on squares, and even if you can't see the city, the information appears in the box... Thanks for bringing this one up.
Txurce (thanks for saying it was your first post)
RCT would fall under the AH argument. Again, who knows what trade will look like. It seems like a bug to me, since it isn't consistant.
Fortifying units in cities is just another inconsistantcy. That will fall under the old, "make it consistant", or tell us in the documantion that it is different.
On using cruise missiles for scounting... good point (some use nukes for that purpose)
I would have to agree that it doesn't make logical sense... But many things aren't logical... The unit thread may be a better place to discuss this.
Carolus Rex
Are you sure about that... I always thought that the square remembered how much work was done, and can be continued later. I didn't think it works like you indicate. If that is indeed correct (thanks, I just learned something), then indeed it needs to be addressed.

Keep the stuff coming... and thanks!
After a few more, I will do a new summary to make it easier for people to see if their suggestions have been covered yet.

	20-05-1999 20:55									#9
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Not 100% certain, as I should be before posting here. Sorry!

I'll test it and get back to you.

Ming, you and Xin Yu seem to be good friends. Does he know about this (Civ3)? He really is an expert on these things (and on the game as a whole) and can contribute a lot. Maybe you can talk to him in private if he's too busy to hang around?

Carolus

	21-05-1999 09:21									#10
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No, I haven't mentioned it to him. But he does check out this site on a regular basis, so I'm sure he is aware of it. I hope he does contribute... especially to this thread since he and MWHC are two of the best game debuggers I have ever run across. I thought Rah and I were good, but then I meet them.

So if Xin Yu or MWHC sees this... your help is needed.

	21-05-1999 18:58									#11
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The "turbo" engineer/settler does indeed exist. Have you ever woke up an engineer that was working on a square to have it instead clean up a polluted square, then noticed it Immediately cleaned the square?

As for the missiles, someone(I think it was don Don) suggested moving missiles like land units, then using the 'paradrop' key to have it 'drop' on a seen enemy target. This eliminates missiles that scout, and can fly over territory and then land like airplanes. As you said, though, this should be in the units thread.

Any city that has built a wonder may be located using the 'find city' command; you'll get an exact location but no other info.

As for ship chaining, I'll say again that disallowing transfer of units should be used. Why? We're talking about brigade-to-division sized units here. Transferring these units in deep water is completely unrealistic, let alone allowing it w/o any loss of movement, and allowing up to 8 divisions to transfer between 2 transport groups! Now if unit size is implemented, I'd agree that a small number of units could pass between ships, but I'd limit it to 1 brigade-sized unit from one ship to another & probably only in the modern era.

	22-05-1999 13:07									#12
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-=*BUMP*=-

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	23-05-1999 07:27									#13
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To solve the problem of using missiles for patrol purpose: missiles should move like ground units (except can be carried by subs and carriers) but attack like missiles.

Somebody thinks using diplo/spy or caravan/freight to pass zone of control is cheating.

One civ investigated a city then all civs can see the inside is a bug. If civ1 uses a spy to investigate a city then occupies it, all civs can check the city and know which improvements are not destroyed.

Clicking on the map where you haven't explored, look at the number after the coordinates tells you if the place is ocean or land is a bug.

Moving via north/south poles to another continent is unrealistic.

In MP, not only giving units to each other can provide more movement points, but also giving cities to each other can provide double productivity--the cities generate shield/revenue/food for both of the civs.

Giving units to each other may end up assigning the home city of a ship to an inland city, totally impossible in single player games. Is it a bug?

That's all I can come up now. MWHC may have more ideas.

Greetings to Ming.

[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited May 22, 1999).]

	23-05-1999 11:15									#14
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Ming,
Aren't you going to bring up the heinous "frequent restart" cheat on one-city challenges? That one really gets my goat.

	23-05-1999 15:04									#15
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I ran a few tests concerning the turbo settler. Here's what I found out. FYI, I have version 1.02 dated the 4th of March 1996.

I started a new game and mined some hills. Five turns later I interrupted the process, moved the settler to another spot and continued there. It only needed the remaining five turns.

Same thing with irrigation and fortressbuilding, the number of turns left to the completion of a task in one square was all the unit needed elsewhere.

I also checked if the square itself was "charged". If an "uncharged" settler started mining some hills that already had been mined a few turns by another settler, it took the normal number of turns.

Now, I don't have a problem with this. The benefits of "turbo mining/irrigation" appear to be small. "Instant fortress" is a very useful tactic, however, but IMHO it's not something that unbalances the game.

Any thoughts?

Carolus

	23-05-1999 20:58									#16
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Txurce: On nukes and cruise missiles being used for scouting.

These should not be a unit in the ordinary sense. I mean, you can send out a cruise missle and check what targets you can find and then hit them.

I say when you activate a cruise missle you point at what square you wanna hit and then off it goes, whatever is occupying that square it hits.

Maybe someone with more time can mention this in the unit thread.

	24-05-1999 09:44									#17
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Pre-worked or turbo settlers is lazy coding. Another example of a technically legal but unplanned "cheat". The work should apply to the square.

	24-05-1999 17:40									#18
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Good... a lot more good ideas since I checked last. I'll start putting together a new summary to post here, and on the summary page thread...
Keep those ideas coming, and thanks to all who have contributed.

(and Txurce, what cheat is that? heh heh heh)


[This message has been edited by Ming (edited May 24, 1999).]

	25-05-1999 17:15									#19
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This is my first post in this thread.

UNINTENDED POSSIBILITIES TO EXPLOIT THE PECULARITIES OF AI GAMEPLAY

I am not entirely sure whether this falls under the heading "cheats". I think it's very close, though: regular cheats are exploitations of loopholes in the programming of the game per se, whereas I mean exploitations of the way the programmers let the AI play the game (also, the AI thread is full of programmers' talk which sounds like Japanese for a computer-science dummy like me).

An expample:

TRIBUTE

The AI gives out money and sciences like candy on halloween. It should not be that way. Consequently, smart players almost always head for an easy win by relying on a tribute-based economy.
Solution: Significantly reduce AI's willingness to pay tribute.

Ming, please indicate if sth like this does not fit the subject of this thread.

	25-05-1999 17:53									#20
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rainer (and thanks for mentioning it was your first post)

Who knows where your suggestion should be placed. I too have tried to make it through the AI discussion, and some of it is a tad over my head...

I hear you, and will fit it in my section. If it is covered somewhere else, so be it. It doesn't hurt to have them hear it twice. Tribute should be paid for a reason. Not the way it is done now. Cheat, or bad programming... that's what this section is for. Thanks!

	25-05-1999 18:13									#21
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I'm not sure if this is a cheat, but I'll post it here. Here's one I want ADDED: There should be an event option and cheat menu option to upgrade obsolete units, a la Leonardo. I'm sure scenario designers could use something like this.

	25-05-1999 20:42									#22
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Amen rainer!

As you said, I don't know if this belongs here but here's more of that weird AI behaviour in need of attention.

I've already posted the same things in the thread "One Vote for STRONG AI", but it's in the "Civ3-General/Suggestions" forum and I'm not sure if it has been picked up anywhere.

Here are some of the things that added together are so devastating to the AI:s war effort and the game's difficulty level in general:

A) Military issues

i) Uncoordinated attacks.

Don't let the AI attack until it has a minimum number of units ready. One at a time is way too easy to defend against.

ii) Kamikaze attacks.

Similar to i), but not identical. Destroyer after destroyer attacking the same city with a coastal fortress, catapult after catapult rolling up to the same fortress with my lethal units in it etc. Try another target or use appropriate units: if "city walls" then "howitzers" or if "coastal fortress" then "marines" (not sure about that last one, just an example).

B) "Miscellaneous" non-military malfunctions

i) The "350 shield settler" (rah's words).

If given the choice I'll rather have an AI continuing building wonders I've just finished instead of an AI switching to something else (i.e. units or improvements). Maybe some shields are wasted if a new wonder tech is far away, but it will make it more difficult to get wonders.

ii) The tribute thing brought up by rainer.

Definitely a too powerful tool, once it takes off it's game over.

Of course, there is plenty more. Feel free to add to the list (unless Ming protests)

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited May 25, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited May 25, 1999).]

	25-05-1999 20:55									#23
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Carolus Rex
I complained about all the same things in the appropriate threads... I hope it doesn't all get lost in "having a programable AI, vs just one that thinks better"
Some of what you mention can be addressed in this area... the tribute thing by rainer fits here. I will look through you list and see how I can phrase some of your suggestions to fit here. Because I agree with all of them, and it never hurts to mention it twice.

Keep e'm coming guys!!!!

	25-05-1999 22:58									#24
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Re: EnochF's concern about a civ's ability to destroy wonders to deny their effects to other civs. IMO this should not be prevented. It's a legitimate strategy, and if someone wants to spend the resources to do it, more power to them. Don't like it, build the wonder first. The more strategy, the better the game.

	25-05-1999 23:44									#25
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"That Bird can sing"

In other words, I agree.

Carolus

	26-05-1999 04:31									#26
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Ming,

Can you please send me your e-mail address? I'm sending my comments to Thread Masters via e-mails these days since it is much easier to do it that way now. I won't share your address with the forum, of course. Thanks.

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	26-05-1999 04:56									#27
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I think destroying a wonder should be considered an atrocity.

Think about it, if France decided they were just gonna tear down the Eifel Tower, dontcha think other countries might oppose it? Granted, they can do what they want, it is theirs, but I just think others might try to prevent it, or react negatively.

	26-05-1999 06:01									#28
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I'll just say this - I LIKE cheats. Sometimes after a long day at work or school, it's nice to come home to civ II, turn on cheat mode, give yourself all tech and a few nukes, and just beat some civs down. I don't, however, think cheats should be normally available in game(it should always be recorded in score), or in multiplayer at all.

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	26-05-1999 12:09									#29
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Txurce: I remember that when you quit the game and reload, the current moving AI will lose a turn. Is that what you mean of "frequent restart" cheat?

	26-05-1999 19:28									#30
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Ok... Let's recap the latest.
New topic... the actual cheat menu!
Sieve Too want's the ability to update units with the push of a button. Great idea... as Rashind says, sometimes he just wants to blast away after a bad day... The cheat menu is there for designers, but it's also there for people to just do what they want with the game. For the record, I don't think anybody really has a problem with the cheat menu! I would recommend they leave that feature in, expecially since it can't be used in an MP game.
Destroying wonders... good or bad. I kind of like the option to destroy one, but there should be some negative reaction by other civs as Travathian points out. I will mention this in the summary as an idea that they should consider. Again, all ideas should be passed along.
Depp raised a good solution to the old "using cruise and nuclear missiles for scouting" problem. I think there is a mixed reaction on whether this is good or bad, but I like his suggestion to have them used like paratroopers. You pick a target, and it goes there. The only problem I can see is if the way is blocked... The solution might be for the missile to come back home... or a message saying can't do... pick another target.
And Xin, that's not what he was talking about. (he was giving me grief... heh heh heh) But your answer raises another cheat... thanks!
Also, Xin and I were messing around last night to discover more cheats (you just have to love insights his into the game)
One cheat and one problem. If you disband a ship at sea in a pile, the whole pile is toast... and this doesn't happen for land units.
The cheat is a classic. If you give somebody a loaded transport at sea... they don't get the units, but they appear at the nearest shore square. This could be used to move a transport past the half way mark to the next coast, and have the units on board teleport the rest of the way... cute Xin!

Keep em coming.