06-08-1999 09:44									#1
	UPDATE (...a weak one...) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, I sent an e-mail to Brian nearly a week ago asking him to clarify what he would like to see in the next list or if a next list is even needed at all.

No answer.

As you've noted, after we finished version 1, I was pretty much burned out and needed some time away. The plan was to get the forums in better shape, but lack of responses left nothing else to do but just let things go on.

At this point, if somebody is really full of great ideas and time, I'd hope you would contact me. Several of you TMs have continued to do OUTSTANDING jobs in your threads: Please contact me or post here on your thoughts.

I am open, of course, to sharing the moderating duties with you. I still want to be involved in a significant way but am just wondering if there are people out there still excited about all this.

	06-08-1999 11:49									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Man don't quit now! You and the thread masters are doing such an excellent job! People have posted many great ideas after the List v1, at (the very) least let's do a summary of what there is now and send that as v2. I'm sure Firaxis will accept it. Hey maybe Brian Reynolds just isn't currently reading his e-mail for some reason, maybe he's on a little vacation.

Keep up the good work, Yin!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by FinnishGuy (edited August 06, 1999).]</font>

	06-08-1999 12:16									#3
	Put an end to popups!

No way, don't give up now! I just posted a huge post in suggestions for a disease model. I haven't been neglecting the COMBAT thread, I read it everyday. I am busy though, and since you said the next list would be done at the end of August I been planning on finishing it mid-month!
Also I still haven't posted my civ3 wish list. The problem is every time I sit down to organize it, I get more ideas! It's almosr 18 pages long now (on paper)! It must reach Firaxis!

	06-08-1999 15:35									#4
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Yin, I wasn't even HERE for the 1st list!

And anyway, I'm confused. From Brian Reynolds' letter after the 1st list, he seemed to have already answered your question. He clearly said he'd like to see the 1st list continued as a sort of living document, and he also stated he'd like to see more analysis of problems than simply listing them (such as ICS), and also more synthesized ideas (i.e., suggesting a real world historical unit PLUS its gained value, as opposed to simply suggesting one or the other alone).

It seemed clear to me he wants to see another list, but he wants it to be the first list built upon and refined, as opposed to a verstion 2 list of everything that was left out the first time.

We're currently working on a religion model on the religion 2.1 thread that is based on all the religion ideas from all the previous postings, and from the final version 1 list. I invite you to take a look at it, for an example of an idea that at least SEEKS to do what Brian Reynolds was asking for. Do people not like the idea of further refining the first list? Seems to me that would do the most honor to all the hard work that's come before.

raingoon

	06-08-1999 16:46									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I agree with raingoon point of view on what they want. I was under the same impression that they don't want to see a second list, but they want to see an "updated and more refined" copy of the first list.

My intent was to take all the new stuff I have, and find the proper place for it in my first write up. (and clean it all up a bit more)

Let us know what your thoughts are.
Keep up the good work. The initial rush of ideas has settled down, but there are still many great ideas coming in.

	06-08-1999 16:58									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ming, raingoon:

That "updating and refining" certainly also means adding completely new ideas to the List, hmmm? Otherwise more than half of the posts since v1 should be left out. Can't be!

	06-08-1999 18:02									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

FinnishGuy... I totally agree that we are to add new stuff (or what the heck have we been doing since the first list)

As I said. I'll be taking the new stuff, and adding it where it makes sense. If it doesn't fit in my current write up, I will just add new sections to it.
There are just TOO MANY NEW IDEAS that need to be added, and they shouldn't be forgotten or lost in the process.

	06-08-1999 20:42									#8
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Well, I for one think that version 2 of the list should probably be the last one we send off. Let's make it good, and get it in by the end of August.

	06-08-1999 23:45									#9
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Don't stop now!!!!
I only started posting here three weeks ago, after List v1.0. I am full of ideas for every thread. I only don't have the time to visit them all.
There has been done a lot of work on the SE thread and when it's finished there I plan to do the same with all other threads.

Snowfire : why should we stop the end of August? I thought Civ3 was for somewhere in the middle of 2000, so we have plenty of time to come to compromisses on every thread.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 06, 1999).]</font>

	07-08-1999 00:12									#10
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Finnishguy

Yes, I don't mean to imply that version 1 has set any *limitations* that need to be followed -- I meant the new list should take advantage of the old list and reflect further analysis, as well as new ideas. I'm sure it will grow horizontally with new ideas, I would only hope it would grow vertically with refinement of the old as well.

Yin? Perhaps a new mission statement for this 2nd list, and a set deadline as Snowfire suggests would be helpful?

	07-08-1999 03:11									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hi all

I don't think we should give up yet, we have more ideas now than we did in v 1, we have posts from May that were not included in that summary (and a lot from June and all the ones from July and August)

perhaps we should give more work to each of the ideas, showing how it could (or is made to) work with other new ideas (and old ideas) so that Brian knows what we are talking about

We need to include all the new ideas we have thought about, refine them, refine the v 1 ideas, and think of more new ones

And we need to all work together so that our TMs and Yin do not get burn out

We need to have one manager (Yin was who it use to be, could be someone new if he is too tired) who asks each person individually to summarize different things, then we need to have two forums, one for revising and one for new ideas

we owe it to gamers, future gamers, and civ lovers everywhere

Jon Miller

	07-08-1999 06:52									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Maniac: But the decisions that will concrete how the game plays, all the major design choices will be made now. Those will be _very_ hard to change later. The most we can do is fine-tune and nitpick, and the best people to do that would be beta-testers.

If BR would give us something to work off of, where his train of thought is going, that would be nice.

	07-08-1999 08:54									#13
	Tired of ads?

Well, it seems there are still a number of people excited about the project. That's good news.

O.K. I'll do my best not to let long runs of silence from Firaxis get me down. I do know we will make a difference and already have. So let's keep going. I'll do my best in the next few days to actually set the forum up so it's easier for us.

Until then, I'd like to thank you guys who still have faith in the project.

	07-08-1999 08:58									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oops. I just saw BR's response in the Thread Manager thread. That gave me a bit of a lift.

	08-08-1999 19:26									#15
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Ming, raingoon: OK guys, just wanted to be sure...

And Yin, that's the spirit!