18-02-2000 13:15									#1
	EC3 Fix #7 - ESTABLISHED BORDERS Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kristen:

"I would like Established Borders!!!!"

	18-02-2000 13:53									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here are my opinions about boarders as I wrote them for improving Cctp. Of course the same ideas can be used in Civ3 for making the game more interesting:
"BOARDERS
Hi, I also think that borders are of great importance in the game. But borders should have different functions in different ages!
Ancient:
I don’t think there should be any boarders; the game should be as it is now. The only thing that could be done is to make the area each city controls bigger with time. I say that because I think that in ancient time there wasn’t any way to take care of any borders, and because that would make the expansion of each civilization easier. I think that does also fit historically: In ancient Greece there wasn’t one nation but different cities states such as Athens and Sparta. But they did fight all together as one nation when the Persians attacked them.
Renaissance:
Boarders should exist, and they should be defined from the combination of your individual cities radius (which wouldn’t be any more only 2 tiles but maybe 3 or 4). But in coastal cities the boarders should only be one tile in the sea, and when 2 cities of foreign nations were at a smaller distance between each other the boarders should be in the middle of their distance. Of course when there is an area where you don’t have cities (mountains for example) surrounded by cities of your nation, it should belong to you. Last when you have a city far away (e.g in an other continent,) it should have boarders of its own and not be connected with the rest. Historically that could fit with Great Britain and its colonies.
Function: 1. Units outside cities but within your boarders don’t create war discontent unhappiness. (Especially useful in Democracy)
2. Foreign units that enter your territory are only seen when these tiles are open to you.
3. Special units are not seen at all.
4. When someone enters your territory and you see him, you should have the right to demand a) stop trespass, or I will declare war b) declare war immediately with a slight lose of reputation.
5. When a diplomat wants to enter your country he should first ask for permission
Modern:
Boarders should be even more important. I also think that in modern age you should be able to see without fog all the territory inside your boarders. I mean that in real world it’s impossible for a whole army to invade in another country without being seen. Of course special units would still be invisible.
Function: 1. Units outside cities but within your boarders don’t create war discontent unhappiness.
2. Foreign units that enter your territory are seen immediately.
3. Special units are not seen at all.
4. When someone enters your territory and you don’t declare war against him, that should cause unhappiness (not sure about that).
Genetic
and Diamond: I would say it should be the same as in Modern age or even more importat..."

Genetic and Diamong Age could refer in future times in Civ 3.

Thanks
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Tilemacho (edited February 18, 2000).]</font>

	18-02-2000 20:08									#3
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Seconded

	20-02-2000 20:09									#4
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Borders should be a factor of government of the civ, not the period. A despot should have borders that are vague, and anarchy should have no borders. Communism and Democracy, however, need definite borders.

	22-02-2000 08:00									#5
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Seconded

	22-02-2000 12:28									#6
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i agree with all the border topics.... i miss borders like in smac..... although diplomacy needs some work with borders involved

	28-02-2000 14:59									#7
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kristen

first can you define what the problem is? is it a significant problem? how does your ideas fix that problem specifically? does your fix effect any other areas of the game? if it does effect another area does it upset game balance in those other areas? is there a simpler way to fix the problem? does your idea hurt gameplay? why out of all of the ideas does your fix belong on this list?

borders are already in SMAC, but they could definantly be improved upon

	07-03-2000 06:34									#8
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Borders shouldn't be automatically extended distances beyond the city radius. Borders should be established via claims made thru units traversing thru or stationed in an area. Counterclaims can be negotiated down to the tile, if so desired.