17-02-2000 14:56									#1
	EC3 New Idea #8 - COMPREHENSIVE SCENARIO EDITOR Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hugo Rune:

"A fully-featured separate scenario-editing program with an easy-to-use interface, a scripting language, editable graphics and settings (untis, technologies, etc.), and full documentation in the form of both a manual and a good help file."

	17-02-2000 16:53									#2
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"Settings" is not really a good word. What would you collectively call all the things mentioned in Rules.txt?

Anything else needed for a good editor?

	18-02-2000 04:48									#3
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Ease of use is most important. The Warlords 2 Deluxe scenario editor should be the inspiration. A primitive painshop like interface is mandatory for managing all the graphics files.

Perhaps the Scenatio Editor should be released as an expansion.

	22-02-2000 15:46									#4
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Maybe... I wouldn't mind it, but many people would. Also, it would have to be integrateable with the main game meaning someone could potentially write an editor themselves...

Any ideas on the formulation?

	23-02-2000 21:54									#5
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Hugo Rune

if asked why out of the five things to put on the new ideas thread why would this idea belong? what are the greatest strength in adding this idea? and what if any weaknesses or exploits does this idea have?

would this be a seperate program in the civ3 folder like blizzard's starcraft campaign editor or what? do you also you do want the power to edit all of the text files in the scenario editor too? do you think the the SMACX faction editor is a good start for this? also what things from the civ2 editor should be kept, though improved?

	24-02-2000 16:46									#6
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[ <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>if asked why out of the five things to put on the new ideas thread why would this idea belong?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Because it can probably be pinpointed as the single feature which adds most longevity to the game. A good mod is in essence a game in itself; having a plethora of good mods available extends the life of any game a great deal. Witness the relative size of the SMAC and Civ2 communities: have you ever wondered why this is so? I think it's because there are many great scenarios and mods available for Civ2, with nearly none for SMAC. This in turn is because the scenario editor in Civ2 is much better than the SMAC one.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>what are the greatest strength in adding this idea?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

The Editing Community of Civ2 is one of the most prevailing group of hardcore fans you will find anywhere on the net. To keep a strong fanbase it is vital for Civ3 to contain an editor, or people will quickly lose interest. It also increases the potential for releasing good, well-recieved add-ons later.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
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</font>and what if any weaknesses or exploits does this idea have?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

It takes a fair amount of effort on the part of the developer to make such an editor. Unlike the other suggestions here, the Editor is an extra and not an integrated part of the game, something which might make developers less inclined to include it.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>would this be a seperate program in the civ3 folder like blizzard's starcraft campaign editor or what?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Yup. Exactly like that, but more powerful.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>do you also you do want the power to edit all of the text files in the scenario editor too?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Why not? Parsers are easy enough to make.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>do you think the the SMACX faction editor is a good start for this?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

The SMACX faction editor was an attempt to appease the fans which I think failed rather dismally. A text file parser for a small part of the whole game, without giving any options to do real mods? I don't think so.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>also what things from the civ2 editor should be kept, though improved?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Should be kept:
The easily editable text and graphics files, and the good parsers that were included in FW.

Kept and Improved:
Macro Language
Graphics editor from FW
Map Editor
The Rules system (expanded to cover improvements and wonders as well)

Replaced:
The Scenario goals system
The In-game scenario editor
The dismal documentation
The editing interface (needs to be made mych easier to use)

Added:
Complete scripting language for 'real' mods

	05-03-2000 16:34									#7
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So, any thoughts on the wording?

	06-03-2000 20:21									#8
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Yes, combine New Ideas #8 and #32. No reason to separate the customization and the inclusion of at least a rudimentary editor.

By "the Rules system" I guess you mean Rules.txt, City.txt, etc files controlling these functions?
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by don Don (edited March 06, 2000).]</font>

	07-03-2000 06:12									#9
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Which thread will the final draft appear in?

	08-03-2000 00:11									#10
	Remove this text

don Don- Yes, That's what I mean. I'll try to write a good final draft that contains both of the features. 300-600 words right?

	08-03-2000 01:01									#11
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Here we go- anything else you want to see included please post here.

"The Ability to customise everything through a powerful editor is one of the chief agents of replayability and immersiveness, and perhaps the best way to keep a large and active Internet community going. Therefore Civilization III™ should contain an easy-to-use yet powerful Game/Scenario Editor.

The editor should be a separate program from the game itself to make editing easier. Conversely the rather convulted interface of previous incarnations should be replaced by a simple drag-and-drop interface, with advanced editing available through a standard, windows-style front-end. To make it easier to use for the first-time user (and indeed all users), all functions that are available in text and graphics files should be editable through parsers. An improved in-game graphics-editing utility is another good addition. It is also essential for there to bee good documentation, both in the Manual and in a separate Help File.

On the other hand, the advanced users should also be catered for. Everything in the game should be customisable: wonders, improvements, rules, units, technologies, maps, victory conditions, civilisations and preferably the AI, as well as the fundamentals of the game itself through scripting commands. Also, everything should be in non-proprietary formats (both graphics, animations and rules) for easy outside editing. Text Files should be created using Include parameters to allow infinite or at least very large numbers of units, techs and so on. Maybe each one can receive it’s own file? A Scripting Language similar to QuakeC or UnrealScript should be included, maybe on several levels to allow all users to benefit through a Macro Language or Prompt System. 3D models if at all included should be editable for all users.

The Map and Scenario editing capabilities should also be enhanced to allow for complete modifications as well as normal game scenarios. The map editor should be made simpler, with a simple drag-and-drop or drag-and-paint interface and the ability to generate good, realistic-looking random maps. The waypoint system should be overhauled, and the task of placing natural-looking settlement needs to be greatly improved.

For those who want simple customisation, everything should be easy to turn on and off with a simple mouse click, from gaming fundamentals (like governments, population effects, internal politics, diplomacy and so on) through units and technologies to aspects of the AI and the Random Map Generator. These should be available both in Scenarios and for standard games. The game would also benefit from a “Stock” library of extra units, graphics, and so on that can easily be included in Scenarios and Custom Games. Firaxis could also keep the community going by releasing extra units and graphics continously through the web site, and by hosting scenario-making competitions."

edit: added the bit about the web at the end.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Hugo Rune (edited March 08, 2000).]</font>

	08-03-2000 01:07									#12
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wow hugo!

that sounds really good! i think you covered about everything...i want a scenario editor like that!

korn469

	09-03-2000 10:03									#13
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I submit that the ability to edit and mix "role" slots for units should be considered an essential part of a "Comprehensive Scenario Editor". Please go to the thread "Improved Role Slots" to see what I mean.