 |
|
Matthevv
|
|
Crawley, W.Sussex, England
Mar 1999
time: 05:14
|
|
Yes, you should have to keep military units in the city for a while, and should not be able to recruit new military units from there for a while. That city should remain more prone to unhappiness and rebellion for a long time.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Frank Johnson
|
 |
Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:14
|
|
Let's give civ2 credit where its due. Civ2 tries to simulate this. When you take over a city, it loses some improvements, but it ALWAYS loses temples and cathedrals if they had any.
Its just usually, that we come waltzing in with Mikes, A better government form, Bach's, a high luxury rate....and they are just overwhelmed 
I admit though, Caputred cities should be more routy, but martial law should apply to them, no matter what the government.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Father Beast
|
 |
My head stuck permanently in my civ
Feb 2000
time: 22:14
|
|
Korn469:
OK, first the problem: When you capture an enemy city, supposedly full of citizens of a civilization you have been at war with, they seem to welcome you with open arms, and are instantly your citizens, just as if you built this city yourself back in 4000 b.c. or thereabouts. This is sometimes taken to absurdity when you nuke a city and then take it over, and the next turn they hold a "we love the premier" day in your honor.
I didn't have a specific fix in mind when I posted. I just want to point it out as something that really should be fixed. I believe this problem is of the level of ICS (another EC fix) or the classic "That Phalanx killed my Battleship!" of civ1. I was impressed by the way that was fixed for civ2, i.e. a more complex combat system for civ2 that didn't require a new set of skills for gameplay. The fix was an automatic behind the scenes sort of thing. I was hoping that Firaxis would recognize the problem and take care of it in a way that didn't hurt gameplay, like last time.
But if I were to suggest a fix...
Captured cities have one or two more "naturally" unhappy people than usual for their pop and difficulty level, continuing for a limited time (say, 5 or 10 turns).
Captured cities have production restrictions as if they were under a despotism, or if you are a despotism, even more restricted than that. Like a "President's day" in reverse.
Captured cities have a corruption and waste rate that is incredibly high, dwindling over the next several turns.
Combinations of some or all of the above.
I have never played AC (maybe when it gets to the cheap rack in a couple of years) or CtP, so I don't know how they dealt with the problem. if you could enlighten me??
the fixes I SUGGEST would not affect other areas of gameplay, although more esoteric fixes (such as cultural, racial and such models) would. I just want to point it out and leave it up to the makers to find the best way.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited February 28, 2000).]</font>
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Perhaps a captured city could show mixed loyalties by having little flags of the previous owner's color attached to a variable number of pop icons. There could be more than one, if the civ you conquered or bribed it from had recently conquered or bribed it from another.
It would not be limited to unhappy dudes. Heck, look at Quebec. It's been 240 years since the Brits took control and they'd still have little French flags attached to them.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
The Mad Viking
|
 |
of the Great White North
Feb 2000
time: 05:14
|
|
I think this is a really important fix. The types of penalties listed should apply, but severity and duration should vary tremendously, based on how well you treat the citizens AND how similar your Civ is to theirs. Fundy's should be slow to assimilate to a decadent democratic regime, whereas another democratic regime would assimilate very quickly if the conquerer increased their wealth.
I think the Partisans is a great way of showing this, but I think it doesn't go far enough. Rebels should appear in the nearby countryside periodically, in greater numbers and frequency when the assimilation is not going well. They should pillage your mines, blow up bridges, kill engineers, and be difficult to find for your troops. And if they take back a city, other cities that are nearby should revolt, and where your military presence isn't strong enough, units in that city should be destroyed.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sirotnikov
|
 |
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:14
|
|
Wow there, mad viking!
I think the Partisans like in Civ 2 is sufficiant. Of course, there is a cheat problem where if you put your untis in the squares surrounding the city, partisans never appear. That should be fixed.
What I would take from your offer however, is that partisans shouldn't all appear in the same turn. They're quantity should depend on city size, former nation's attitude towards you, your approval rating.
And the little evil things should appear in decent quantities in surrounding tiles. That would go on for a few turns, again depending on the variables i mentioned.
I wouldn't want whole hordes to appear. I mean, I waisted enough units conquering the f***ing city and fortifying it. If I'll need to kill 10 partisans each turn it will require for me to always keep at least 5 or 6 units near the occupied city. Not to mention that if that repeats itself, I would have to replace those who are destroyed every 3 or 4 turns. That way there's no way I'll ever conquer more than two citys in each war.
It has to be reasonable. I know the nazis had a difficult time restraining partizans in france, but they still managed to send a whole lot of troops to the russian front. And that was while whole of France was revolting (sort of). Not one lousy city.
But the general idea of spanning the partisans through out the turns is good.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
pauli
|
|
herndon, va, usa
Jan 2000
time: 00:14
|
|
a more dynamic resistance would be good. i think that partisans *should* appear right away - unless you have occupied the entire area to stamp them out before they can organize. then, over time, more should appear, as was suggested.
oh, and partisans should be bribable - they may be displaced guerillas, but they are still human, and most of them still get tired of war after a point. now, it would be fine if you couldn't bribe them right away... but after a few turns, yeah, they should be ripe for the picking. however, it might not be a bad idea to have a few of them unbribable.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Father Beast
|
|
My head stuck permanently in my civ
Feb 2000
time: 22:14
|
|
FINAL DRAFT:
The problem of "Instant City Conversions" is that when you conquer a city, the citizens are suddenly yours, as if the city had been originally built by your civilization. They are governed by your government system, and experience the immediate benefit of your wonders and luxury rates. This is taken to the absurd extreme when a city is nuked a couple of times before being captured, and the citizens hold a "We Love The King" day the next turn after being captured.
Some possibilities for fixing this problem are:
High waste and/or corruption rates for captured cities.
Tile production penalties in captured cities. Like a "We Love The... Day" in reverse.
A specific bar against captured cities having a "We Love The... Day" for a certain number of turns.
A block against captured cities feeling the effect of your Wonders for a certain number of turns.
An increase in "naturally" unhappy people, making it difficult to keep out of disorder.
The most reasonable suggestion is the presence of "Drones" in the captured city, as in Alpha Centauri. (I haven't played Alpha Centauri, I have only had it explained to me by Korn469)
What I envision is in a captured city, a certain number of citizens become "Drones" i.e. citizens that not only are unhappy,but also do no work. So you not only have to deal with the unhappiness, but also the production drop. Partisans would appear around the city, but only as many as there are "Drone" citizens. (after all, it is essentially the drones that support the partisans)
The number of "Drones" that appear and the time it takes to "convert" the city (gradually decreasing drones) would depend on the conquering civilization's government AND the conquered civilization's government. A depotism taking a despotism's city wouldn't make much difference, but a democracy taking a despotism's city would actually reduce the drones created. The highest penalty would come from a despotism taking a democracy's (or a fundamentalist's ) city, with as much as half of the population becoming drones.
some notes:
If a city is bought, given, or conquered by a third party before being converted, its alliegance should remain to the original civilization
Despite what form of government you have, you should be able to enforce "martial law" in captured cities with your units, at least for the first phase of conversion. Note that although you make the drones less unhappy, you still can't get them to work or stop supporting partisans.
Reputation may or may not play a part in converting your captured cities. IMO, the governments and difference between would make a bigger difference.
These don't take into account any social engineering models or culture. if these are implemented in civ3, that would make a big difference.
In closing, I want to point out that these are SUGGESTIONS. I am not a programmer or playtester on civ3 (but wouldn't I like to be  ) and I don't know the right balance that will be neccesary to keep the game fun. I trust team Firaxis to fix the problem, and in a way that makes the game more fun.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited March 09, 2000).]</font>
|
|
| |
|
|
|
korn469
|
 |
Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:14
|
|
Fix #9 - No More Instant City Conversions
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>The problem of "Instant City Conversions" is that when you conquer a city, the citizens are suddenly yours, as if the city had been originally built by your civilization. They are governed by your government system, and experience the immediate benefit of your wonders and luxury rates. This is taken to the absurd extreme when a city is nuked a couple of times before being captured, and the citizens hold a "We Love The King" day the next turn after being captured.
Some possibilities for fixing this problem are:
High waste and/or corruption rates for captured cities.
Tile production penalties in captured cities. Like a "We Love The... Day" in reverse.
A specific bar against captured cities having a "We Love The... Day" for a certain number of turns.
A block against captured cities feeling the effect of your Wonders for a certain number of turns.
An increase in "naturally" unhappy people, making it difficult to keep out of disorder.
The most reasonable suggestion is the presence of "Drones" in the captured city, as in Alpha Centauri. (I haven't played Alpha Centauri, I have only had it explained to me by korn469)
What I envision is in a captured city, a certain number of citizens become "Drones" i.e. citizens that not only are unhappy,but also do no work. So you not only have to deal with the unhappiness, but also the production drop. Partisans would appear around the city, but only as many as there are "Drone" citizens. (after all, it is essentially the drones that support the partisans)
The number of "Drones" that appear and the time it takes to "convert" the city (gradually decreasing drones) would depend on the conquering civilization's government AND the conquered civilization's government. A depotism taking a despotism's city wouldn't make much difference, but a democracy taking a despotism's city would actually reduce the drones created. The highest penalty would come from a despotism taking a democracy's (or a fundamentalist's ) city, with as much as half of the population becoming drones.
some notes:
If a city is bought, given, or conquered by a third party before being converted, its alliegance should remain to the original civilization
Despite what form of government you have, you should be able to enforce "martial law" in captured cities with your units, at least for the first phase of conversion. Note that although you make the drones less unhappy, you still can't get them to work or stop supporting partisans.
Reputation may or may not play a part in converting your captured cities. IMO, the governments and difference between would make a bigger difference.
These don't take into account any social engineering models or culture. if these are implemented in civ3, that would make a big difference.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited March 09, 2000).]</font>
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:14.
Apolyton Time is 00:14. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
21-02-2000 05:42
|