19-09-1999 18:12									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I guess it's when the scenarios start to come out we really see what we have gotten for our money.

It seems there are several people out there making scenarios at the moment. So i guess when they start to come out we will really see the potentian of this upgraded game.

	19-09-1999 19:42									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I really can't see the furor over the graphics. I can play just fine. The few times I needed another look, one zoom does the trick.

------------------
Jim Cobb

	19-09-1999 20:33									#33
	Support Apolyton

Which settings do you use (map zoom, screen resolution, animations turned off etc)?

Carolus

	20-09-1999 01:43									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

anyone who wants ToT just send me a box with postage paid.

where are all the microprose people?? dont see them around much anymore. off spending all our money i bet. enjoy it now MP... it might be your last time.

	20-09-1999 06:21									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't know why I'm so surprised, because every time one of these products comes out, there's a revolutionary force that springs up saying that "this is crap". Usually, "it's not as good as Civ2" - well this one is Civ2 with enhancements, and there's still whining.

I'm with Dracon on this - I think the graphics are a vast improvement with a few exceptions...

While I have no problem with the graphics on the main screen, identifying units in the city-view screen is poor - especially when they are in sleep/board-next-ship mode.

The units do not sit on the square that they are occupying, but often the one immediately above. I've moved units in the wrong direction because of this. Easy to fix for sure.

The tribe colours are confusing when looking at the health bar, but I acknowledge that the designers have tried to incorporate the tribe colour in many units. Despite the explanations in the above posts, this is still surprising.

I don't like the new city view (as I didn't with CtP) - the traditional Civ2 one is still clearer. Why does one have to cycle through sub-menus to find out what's going on?

Almost needless to say again, but I too miss some of the video footage such as the WoW movies and the animated heralds. Why Microprose seems to think it's imperative to have only one CD-ROM is still a mystery. When we're paying Aust $80 for the game, surely cost wouldn't be a factor? Why isn't there an 'installation' disk and a 'playing' disk?

I'm sorry 'MWHC' - but I don't share your view, and would gladly send you the box and postage, except I have my own. I think the Midgard scenario is really engaging, and I've yet to roll up my sleeves and get into scenario development yet - but I'm looking forward to it one day soon. I'm sorry for you though that you feel ripped off - I've been there with plenty of other games, but not this one.

Perhaps I'd like to have seen some scenario editors (that work), and perhaps a sprite library for scenario developers to use.

	20-09-1999 06:27									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I see your points. I think they just went overboard on graphics. I like the globe map at the top now, thats cool. the mulitple maps are neat. CIV II graphics are also great - why change a good thing. They needed to add more game play. now, some here say that that is what CIV III is for. That's fine, but why does mircoprose charge $50 for a CIV II senario (which is all ToT is IMHO).

I still feel like I've been taken for a ride.

	20-09-1999 15:13									#37
	Suffering from ads?

So you don't like the city view? toggle it back to the traditional civ2 city screen. You can do that. And you can also make the top info bar turn back into the traditional civ2 info bar on the side. They're menu options!

	20-09-1999 15:58									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

To Rusty Nail
To change terrain, I changed the file terrain1.bmp (after I saved the original...) with Paint Shop Pro, importing the terrain from terrain1.gif of the original Civ2, just Cut and Paste the right terrains in their right position. For Terrain2.bmp, I simply converted the Terrian2.gif to bmp and it works well.
For Units, I'm using the St.Leo Modpack. You can download it from another thread of this forum.
Since I copied the file in the Original directory, they adffects only Original Game and Extended game. They don't interfere with SCiFi And Fantasy games.

	20-09-1999 17:02									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

The more I read about the graphics issue, the more I feel that we don't all seem to have got the same game.

It is extraordinary how different the views are between people. Some people have no problems with the colours.. other people do

I don't believe this is down to hardware, as I have tried this on 3 different systems (IBM, AMD and Compaq), and get the same poor graphics.

If there are any microprose people reading these messages, perhaps they can answer:

1. Have they shipped out slightly different versions of ToT to different parts of the world.
2. Are there any groups of graphic cards, that would not work well with the ToT screens.
3. And if they are really honest... did they notice this problem but didn't think it mattered!!!!!!!!!!!

regards,

Glenn

	20-09-1999 20:41									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dracon,

Errr - thanks for the tip (red face, red face) - I hadn't realised it was there. Why did they choose to make the other the default I wonder?
[This message has been edited by Cam (edited September 20, 1999).]

	21-09-1999 01:48									#41
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I don't mind the city screen, but I've got the info and map screen in the original civ2 position. I guess Microprose were trying to be different

	21-09-1999 19:23									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hi, everybody. Sorry I haven't been here, but I took a vacation to deal with that hurricane (we're in Maryland).

We made the new interface bits the defaults just because they were new. If we had left the old ones as the defaults, chances are that the reviewers and most players wouldn't have even noticed that there were new ones. This way, we thought, we can show off what we've added, plus let anyone who doesn't prefer the new to easily revert to the old.

And speaking of easily reverting to the old, I'm sorry that not everyone likes the new graphics. We have not made any efforts in the patch to make it easier to revert to the Civ2 graphics, but if I remember right, there's already a mod available here in Apolyton that does that. I'm glad someone did it, to help make those who are unhappy with the game happier. As I've mentioned elsewhere, we honestly thought that we were making the graphics better, richer, and more detailed--without losing any information. Maybe we didn't get it right. I have no problem telling what units are whose, but I've been playing the game for quite a while now. As it did with the original Civ2 (and every other game I've ever played), it took me a little while to get used to the way information was presented. Once I did, though, it became second nature. I'm not suggesting that it will be that way for everyone, but I can hope...

	22-09-1999 00:19									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

No, the City flag icon controls the unit indicator color, the map indicator color, and of course, its own flag color. There is 1/2 bars above the flag that also do something (but I forget what). The artists that worked on the flags obviously forgot their effects on the units.

	22-09-1999 03:14									#44
	Tired of ads?

I think the graphics for ToT are fine, at least for a turn-based strategy game. I tried the new graphics mod that is floating around here and didn't care for it because it was too bright. Of course, this is all my own opinion, but I do applaud the developing team on their fine work.

	22-09-1999 12:09									#45
	Remove this text

yh30264, probably you are right.
There are two group of people with different point of view.
"De gustibus non est disputandum".

But just to show how TOT shows on my PC, I published a screen-shot at the following URL:
http://www.webcentric.interbusiness...tall/image2.jpg

And now let me know if for you it is easy to distinguish between Persian, Babylonian an Aztec settlers...

	22-09-1999 13:05									#46
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This is how it runs on mine: http://www.strategicgaming.com/tot.gif

I can easily tell the difference, Gambler
[This message has been edited by Dracon (edited September 22, 1999).]

	22-09-1999 17:15									#47
	Remove this text

Thanks to Dracon and Gambler for uploading the two screens they are seeing.

I have to say, that I find both of them difficult to read, though I'd say that Gambler's screen is slightly lighter.

Dracon, can you tell me what the unit is that is northeast of edgetown.

I find it difficult to believe that you think this screen is clear, and that it is easy to know what that unit is.

I think John's reply that because he has been playing ToT a long time, he doesn't find the graphics an issue, is wrong.

Why should we learn to live with blurry graphics, when we had clarity in the previous version?
John, can you tell me that the unit's colours are easy to differentiate in gambler's screen shot?

regards,

Glenn

	22-09-1999 17:24									#48
	Increase Your PM Length

That's an archer to the left of the warrior.
I think it looks fine.

	22-09-1999 17:39									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree with yh30264.

I first looked at gambler's picture and thought "yep, same horrible look as I got" (actually, it's a little better than mine). So I expected Dracon's to be a lot different (better), but it's actually worse...

Furthermore, Dracon is satisfied with that one, finds it clear and illustrative???

I'm confused...

At least this kills the theory of different versions in different continents.

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited September 22, 1999).]

	22-09-1999 20:05									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Dracon.... how close do you sit to the monitor??? I think you must very close, to able to regard that as 'fine'

Joking aside, it has been a very useful exercise, because as Carolus Rex says it confirms that we've all got the same blurred graphics, but some people don't seem to mind.

(I asked 10 people to look at your screenshot, and not one person thought it was clear). None of them played civII, which means they weren't comparing it to previous civ games, which meant they had a neutral view considering the graphics.

I figure you must be so immersed in your strategies, that you don't even notice the indistinct graphics.

Myself I prefer a less painless exercise, than straining my eyes trying to work out what is moving across the screen.

The most important thing to come out of this, is hopefully that the designers of CIVIII take note at the huge controversy the 'new' graphics have caused.

If they forget about trying to dazzle us with 'improved graphics', animated sprites etc... and left the graphics at the MGE level and instead improved the gameplay (improved A1, better diplomacy and trade, more wonders, advances and units) I would be more than happy.

But I will not be buying it until I've seen a demo...

regards,

Glenn

	23-09-1999 01:37									#51
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I must have better eyesight than you guys, because I can certainly tell the difference between an archer, and a warrior, a Stygian with a Buteo etc.....

	23-09-1999 11:33									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Dracon,
the problem is NOT to distinguish between an archer and a settler, but between a Persian settler, a Babylonian settler and an Aztec settler.

But now a doubt dawned on me: if the problem of colours is system related, probably we see different things on the screenshots too.

	23-09-1999 12:32									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hello Gambler,

I don't think the problem is system related, because I've seen the same problem on 3 different pcs.

I viewed the screenshots on a 4th pc, and thought both were blurred, though yours was slightly lighter. However that could be because you werre playing a different game to Dracon.

However it would be interesting to know what hardware, Dracon is using.

Dracon, could you enlighten us.

regards,

Glenn

	23-09-1999 12:44									#54
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm running it with a Dell Trinitron monitor, 1024 by 768 resolution, true colour(24 bit) I don't know if I have any 3d acceleration, if I do, it came with the computer package.

	23-09-1999 18:54									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Except for the Roman unit that was partially covered by the word "Kaupang", I didn't have any trouble identifying everything--but again, I've been looking at the units' overhead keys for months longer than most people. I don't mean to suggest that the problem will go away with exposure, only that, as nearly everyone seems to agree, some folks have a problem with it and some don't.

Frankly, I think that we did pretty well, but if we had done things perfectly (a tall order), there wouldn't be this sort of debate. No one would find the graphics blurry or unclear enough to complain about. I can't undo what's done, but we can learn a lesson for future games.

	23-09-1999 19:11									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

maybe 'they suck' was a little harsh. i do think the programming is very good. the graphics are smooth and flicker free. i just wish the civ ii graphics could have been included (or at least an option like the city screen). there was nothing wrong with the old graphics - adding the new graphics added nothing to the game, at least IMHO.

	23-09-1999 19:50									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Just a final question for John and Dracon:
According to you, is the colour in the small square of units' health bars the same of their city name and of the number of citizen of their city?
I'm asking that to you because for me these colours are complitely different, one is bright and clear, the other is very dark.
And another note: last night I played Scifi scenario for the first time, and things seem to be a bit better, probably because the unit's uniforms have a larger coloured area.

	23-09-1999 20:05									#58
	Got spare money?

Folks,

Another possibility to consider is that Dracon is being deliberately difficult.

Probably John's nephew or something....

The first screen shot was exactly how I remembered the game, just before I took it back and got a refund. Oh, well atleast Mech Warrior 3 is a pretty good game. (Although, yo should read some of the complaints on their forums.)

I agree that the MP should provide an easy way to transfer back to the CIV2 graphics.



------------------
"...Democracy is the worst system there is, except all the other ones"

Winston Churchill

	23-09-1999 20:05									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Folks,

Another possibility to consider is that Dracon is being deliberately difficult.

Probably John's nephew or something....

The first screen shot was exactly how I remembered the game, just before I took it back and got a refund. Oh, well atleast Mech Warrior 3 is a pretty good game. (Although, you should read some of the complaints on their forums.)

I agree that the MP should provide an easy way to transfer back to the CIV2 graphics.



------------------
"...Democracy is the worst system there is, except all the other ones"

Winston Churchill

	24-09-1999 03:53									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm Australian, not American, thankyou!
And I'm NOT being deliberately difficult, because I'm having NO problems telling the difference between units, and I'm playing on a good resolution, so things don't look grainy and blurry.