20-10-1999 18:39									#1
	A SOLUTION TO THE HISTORICAL MAP PROBLEM!!!! Suffering from ads?

Hey all,

I think I have developed a way around the frustrating map barriers in TOT. It is counter-intuitive but I think it will work. What I really need are some heavyweights like Cam and techumseh to check it out independently.
Here is my example:




Say we want to do the classic WW2 scenario. Here are the three maps we'll use, the US on the left, Europe/Russia in the middle and Pacific on the right. How to make them link? First of all, the maps are round! Second of all, if we put impassable terrain where the white borders are, the shape of each map is slightly distorted to the point that some of their edges are now on the other side of the (now) flat maps.

For example, we have a unit going from Russia to the Far East via the Trans-Siberian Railway. In the center map it travels east, east, east . . . until it goes across the map border into the RED portion of its map. Note that it cannot go further becuse the impassable terrain is in the way. Nor can a unit in, say, England in that same area pass over the terrain into the red zone. Place a transport site in the red, linking it to the Pacific map, and it appears over on that map in the corner we want it!

The same thing goes for Atlantic travel (yellow zone) and California (blue zone). Note that the zones need only be two spaces wide or even long (one for the actual transport site, and one for the impassable border.
[This message has been edited by Michael Daumen (edited October 20, 1999).]

	21-10-1999 09:26									#2
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It seems to me that Russian units would be traveling from Leningrad to London, Americans would go from Miami to Istanbul and from San Diego to Hong Kong.

Under that system I don't see how strategic sites like Gibraltar and the Suez would be important since the Americans can still just pop in to the Mediterranean Sea even if both sites were controlled by the Germans. Furthermore how can you keep the AI from pillaging the transport sites during the game?

I think the only workable way of using multiple maps in a historical scenario is though the use of starports. We could start by renaming starport to inter-theater port facility (or some such name) and making it impossible to build. By locating these inter-theater connection points in strategic cites such as Suez, Gibraltar, London, New York, San Diego, Seattle, Hong Kong, and Tokyo we can simulate the ability to strategically re-deploy troops from one theater to another. Thus, the Germans would not be able to send troops to Japan until they have taken the Suez or Gibraltar. Likewise the Allies would have realistic limits on how many units they could move from theater to theater, perhaps two or three per turn.

	20-10-1999 22:21									#3
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Isn't there a way to make some terrain impassable? Using that you could prevent units from doing what you suggest (Miami to Istanbul & so forth). If that doesn't work you could place a line of high-defense air units that even the computer won't attack (I am told it knows when they are too hard to kill).

As far as the pillage problem, in this scenario I think it would be alright. The transport points are Atlantic Ocean, Central US and Siberia. The first is a sea zone - can boats and planes pillage? The second would require a successful invasion of America. If the allies get that far the game is pretty much over. I imagine the most vulnerable one would be Soviet Far East near Japan, but if they cut the Trans-Siberian railway that would be the real-life result, wouldn't it? No troops from European Russia?

In the alternative, put the latter two sites on sea zones, and place sea units on them with a move of 1. Call the American one Transcontinental RR and the Soviet one Trans-Siberian RR. Then units must be transported via those units, and the sites themselves can't be pillaged.

Granted, this leaves out the Suez/India idea. This method won't work with North-South maps. But it is a lot better than upside down maps or starports everywhere.
[This message has been edited by Michael Daumen (edited October 20, 1999).]

	21-10-1999 09:47									#4
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Interesting. I think I agree with Michael. This should work, in theory anyway. If you move east on the Pacific map until you pass to the west (round map), then jump maps, you are in the west of the North American map - on the west coast. I don't understand the reference to Leningrad to London, etc. These transport points could be limited to one square, rather than the entire map edge.

Let's say we added a fourth map, Siberia and India. It would have 2 transit routes, one for the Soviets (Urals to Vladivostok) and one for the British (Suez to Burma). Using impassible terrain (yes, it is available in ToT) you could prevent someone playing the Japanese who captured Burma from moving to the Urals. If they captured Vladivostok, however, they could move west across Siberia and exit in the Urals east of Moscow.

The problem is, how you could prevent the Soviet player from simply garrisoning all the overlapping squares to prevent the Japanese player from exiting onto the European map?

I like the ideas of starports to limit the capacity of nations in the 1940's to transport units to other theatres. But how do you control which starport connects to which starport? Just because the Germans capture Gibraltar, they should not be able to move units to the Pacific. Unless I am mistaken, a player could move units between any two starports. San Diego to Suez doesn't make sense if Gibraltar and Singapore are held by the Axis.

This is a very interesting discussion. I think you guys are on to something.

	21-10-1999 17:11									#5
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tech, the garrison idea comes with the cost of units better used against the Nazis -- all choices for the Russian leader. And I doubt the AI would do it. That map will be big and empty up in Siberia.

I'd like to hear from some of the folks planning a Second World War Two (thanks Grampa Simpson) scenario.

------------------
Michael Daumen

"the future is not yet"

	21-10-1999 20:54									#6
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I just don't get it Michael. I think I need you to explain some specific points to me.
The blue zone on the USA map is California, right? So what part of the world is the blue zone on the pacific map? And if this area is closed off by impassible terrain why would the Americans go there since they can't move out of the blue zone?

	22-10-1999 00:32									#7
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The blue zone in the left-most map is, say, the Midwest. The blue zone in the right-most map is California. Say there is infantry in the Midwest that I want to send to the Pacific theater. If he is on the blue zone in the USA map, he goes to the transport site and is now in the blue zone in the Pacific map. Because there is impassable terrain to the "east" (if he moves to the right) and "north," and the map edge to the south, the only way he can go is to the "west" (left). At some point the unit passes over the side of the map we are using (but we don't notice because the map is round) onto the right side of the same map, in a position more like what we are used to seeing when we look at a map.

I think you're having trouble with the description of the maps as "round." They are round only in the sense that you can move from PARTS of one side to PARTS of the other side. Essentially we have chopped off a piece of one side of a flat map and pasted it onto the other side, so that it is no longer rectangular.

If anyone doesn't see what I mean, I will try and do a two-map example. When it is ready I will post here and send it to people who want it. Trust me, it will work.

	22-10-1999 01:31									#8
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OK, I worked up a real quick .sav file with the required files. E-mail me anyone who wants a look.

Two things:
1. Where are the teleporter icons? I need to change them.
2. How do you make terrain impassable? In my example I just use air units.

I humbly accept the Nobel Prize for Civ.

------------------
Michael Daumen

"the future is not yet"

	22-10-1999 01:43									#9
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waiting eagerly for the example. question: maps that are different sizes dont work together. does that mean we ll have to design our own Pacific map...
Also, what about just using events in a multimap scenario, ie Jerry captures, say, Baghdad, and a whole wack of German units appear in Persia on the Asia map. Plus, the Germans could be given the normally unresearchable starport tech so that they can build a starport in the city their events given army captures. it wont matter where the starport SENDING the troops is.

	22-10-1999 01:48									#10
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Bravo Michael! Ingenious! That is a fabulous idea! How very adroit of you.

I didn't think anyone could make up and down seem like east and west but you managed to do it. Congratulations.

Now that you have figured that one out, there is a little problem with gravity in E=MC˛ that I think you should have a look at.

	22-10-1999 11:54									#11
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MIchael could you please send me a copy, I'm a bit lost and I'd like to try it out. Thanks, the e-mail in my profile is right.

	23-10-1999 01:03									#12
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Could you send me a copy too?

	23-10-1999 09:56									#13
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Congratulations, that is absolutely brilliant. As someone who loves to play secenarios, especially historical ones, you deserve praise.

	23-10-1999 10:28									#14
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please send me a copy.

archangel39@priest.com

Thanks.

	25-10-1999 00:08									#15
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Oh man! Does this mean I have to remake our Cold War map AGAIN!?!?!?!?!?!

I just got all the cities in place and all the maps edited, and with this there will be no orbital fighting, or place for ICBMs to go, or or or or I'll email you...

	05-11-1999 02:32									#16
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I've already done a World War II scenario for TOT,and in that case the best thing to do is not to link the maps at all! Since Europe and the Pacific were so far apart the armies rarely sent units back in forth in the real war. For example, Hong Kong was almost entirely undefended when the Japanese attacked in real life. Keeping them separate will also allow for one civilization to represent two different countries. A civilization like this would act like two civilizations sharing a leader, a cash flow, and technology. It certainly saves on civs so you don't have to bunch a lot of them together in one alliance or another.