29-04-2001 10:13									#1
	Civ3: Unique civ attributes: Another blow to mulitplayers? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I was just reading the civ 3 forum that civ 3 will give civs unique attributes such as better tanks for the Germans etc. a la SMAC.

If true, this is another blow to multiplayers - can you imagine the arguments that could ensue about who gets what civ!


------------------
Founder, Dear Leader and Great Helmsman of PROT -the People's Republic of Topics www.delphi.com/prot1

	29-04-2001 17:32									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't think this is certain yet.

	29-04-2001 18:29									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I don't believe that can be true.
Would take the biggest aspect of the game away.
How individuals do starting at base.

------------------
It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe

	29-04-2001 18:44									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

One can only hope that if indeed they do it, there will be an option for MP where the special abilities are turned off.

	29-04-2001 19:30									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/002615.html?21

	29-04-2001 19:53									#6
	Remove this text

The disturbing sign is that Yin26 might be right about Civ3 being a remake of the SMAC engine. For the meantime we can only wait and see how it develops.

	29-04-2001 20:24									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It looks like they are taking all the things that made Alpha Centauri, Test Of Time, and Call To Power flops - and incorporating them into Civ.3

Why recycle the failures when you have a successfull product staring you in the face

eg:Unique attributes were in Alpha Centauri - I dont want them. I want to create my own civ. idenity

eg:Non windowed interface of Call To Power - I want to run other programs in the background, such as ICQ

I also wish to keep the lan options and the ability to host games. I don't want to have to go to dedicated servers in order to play

In these things I have to stand firm - I bought the previously mentioned products, and rarly play them. - I will not buy another product that I'm not going to play just because it has the Civ. name on it.


------------------
if i display a lack of skill, please note the enthusiasm

	30-04-2001 09:00									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well despite what you all say I really like the fact that there are different elements in each civ that make them unique. I think there should be more. I think each civ should have their own bonuses like SMAC or Master of Orion.

One of the biggest failings of Civ2 and especially on here in Multiplayer is that there is no more variety. Some of the 'best' players write themselves out little cookbooks for how to beat the game, and beat your opponents. Everything is the same an homogenized, so it is clear you do step 1, then step 2, and then you win. Sickening, thats not a game.

If the precious science experiment has a few variables maybe it'll be a bit less predictable, and a bit more interesting. With the sterile strategies everyone uses here the games are based solely on your starting positions, and people like Eyes knows this very well and while playing him he'll forfit 5 out of 6 games if they don't go 100% his way in the first few turns. You all have the attitude of the Single Player who reloads a save if he looses a unit or opens a hut the wrong way.

This will make things different i hope, different strategies can be used to win, different approaches. While different units is just a small step, i'd like to see lots of totally different attributes of each civ. I think its a great idea.

	29-04-2001 22:05									#9
	Remove this text

Don't invoke my name Ozzy for you know absolutely nothing. You're as bad as Slowwhand in that respect.

	30-04-2001 01:07									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Those are good points Ozzy, but only apply to duels. The "science experiment in a vacum" argument falters when you have several players in an mp game, some racing for the same goals, some not. Not everyone can achieve their own handbook formulas with such varying competion in mp's - game resources are limited! Don't you think unique map layouts are variable enough?

Know what imposing civ specific attributes is going to do? It's going to further specify and reinforce the winning formula you fear. Everyone will catch on to some little trick that makes one civ that much more powerful than the rest, and EVERYONE will want to use that civ. If they don't get it, they'll want the next best. Don't trick yourself into thinking firaxis can achieve some sort of "balance" amongst these civs either, it can't and won't happen. One might argue that this imbalance is a problem to be solved in game, through loose alliances against the more powerful civs. WHY SHOULD THESE TYPES OF ALLIANCES HAVE TO BE DECIDED BEFORE THE GAME STARTS?!

You want civ specific variables? I do too, just let me choose which ones in the course of the game. Wanting advantages and civ characteristics laid out in front of you before the game starts is the most retarded desire comprehensible. Oh of course these types of advantages are laid out when the computer places you on the map, but at least it's not a constant, expected variable. The idea of this game is to create your own history, right?

Maybe not. Perhaps a more Starcraft layout is desired by firaxis, appealing to an audience *percieved* to be bigger. After all, the point here is to sell as many copies as possible. I think that's what they call "selling out" these days.

	30-04-2001 09:45									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>&lt;font size=1&gt;Originally posted by EvilProphet on 04-29-2001 01:05 PM&lt;/font&gt;
Don't invoke my name Ozzy for you know absolutely nothing. You're as bad as Slowwhand in that respect.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Zylka, It's widely known the only thing Eyes is capable of is duels where he uses all the bugs in the game.
I also pointed out he doesn't have to watch his flanks so much in duels.
He ignored. No response that I saw.
Big damn deal.
I saw the write up on cheats long ago, and chose to ignore.
I'll do what I can do, without relying on the bugs.
That said, bring it.

------------------
It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by SlowwHand (edited April 30, 2001).]</font>

	30-04-2001 09:57									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

My post has absolutely nothing to do with Eyes . Yeah, he's a specific case of gameplay in himself, but if you want change solely based on spiteing a sinlge player.... good luck!

	30-04-2001 10:00									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You know... reading over your message again, I have absolutely no idea what the point was and why it was referenced to me. Please send me a private note and explain

	02-05-2001 13:29									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

This should not become "WeHate Eyes" thread, it started out as a well defiended thread on yet another reason why Civ 3 is not catering to the MP crowd.

I dont agree that Civ MP is becoming boring, there are so many varieties at go now it is great. I think as stated above that Duel games are becomnig as predictable as SP , another reason I dont play them.

But with humans unable to be perfect, and you multiply that by 7 for the 7 humans playing and you get a good game that can go anywhere....

This is what we want from civ 3, not preconfigured civs that have advantages over others, that is what Scenarios are for... the basic civ should make all starting civs as equal as possible with all techs and units avaialble to all....

	02-05-2001 23:56									#15
	Support Apolyton

Civ multiplayer boring? Guess you're playing with the wrong people Ozman. I'm playing in two very exciting games currently. My interest in civ MP has only increased since I started playing. If civ 3 sucks, there's always civ2, which has more variety and interest than any game I've ever played. I agree with Clay, screw all the new crap, make a few good tweaks and stick to the basics.

	03-05-2001 02:25									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

Personally I don't see this as an issue.

I don't play civilization for sport, I play it for fun. If a tribe has an advantage on the water while another has an advantage as far as irrigation goes, I don't see the issue with Multiplaying.

I could understand that people want everything even from the start. I guess that's fine but in the end its all just a game for entertainment purposes. And if attributes added to the game totally ruin the entertainment factor for civ I think you are playing the wrong game. The AI has specific attributes to them. Even when you play MP certain tribes get certain techs and certain tribes get an extra settler, it may be random as far as when it happens, but its built into the game. This game obviously wasn't meant for seven totally similar tribes to begin in optimum-fairness as far as terrain goes. So why bich and moan about something like this?

I am pretty sure you will have the ability to turn any type of attributes off, or make them random, or customize them, or whatever it is you want to do to them. I doubt they'd force this down our throats. So arguing the reasons why it hurts MP is kind of pointless.

You should argue how it will hurt MP for sport. Anyone that plays MP for fun won't give a **** if the Vikings get an extra movement on their ships, or if the Egyptians have better irrigation...

But I could be wrong.