08-02-2000 01:15									#1
	Civ II: Tot Map format Enter the AD-FREE zone

Since someone here already said they know it and to save me the trouble of figuring it out myself, I was wondering if someone could tell me the file format of Civ II: Tot maps.

With all the talk here lately about the lack of editors for the game, I've decided that I'm going to write them myself.

Since Sprite Workshop is almost complete (It would have been long ago if I hadn't had to re-write it about 20 times), I should have plenty of time for other projects.

So which would you people like first, A map editor or a rules.txt editor?

	08-02-2000 05:59									#2
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Map editor. o, by the way, for the rules editor, maybe u could base it off of the FW editor? And same with the map? Just a couple of ideas

	08-02-2000 08:06									#3
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I have developed a scenario writing engine (a composer for rules.txt and a few other files) in Access. Since I don't have the time to port it over to visual basic myself I have been looking for a programmer to partner on the project with. Are you interested Draco?

	08-02-2000 17:57									#4
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DracoOmega, you've anticipated me
Using things i've learned snooping through the scn files i'm working on the same project you have in mind since few weeks;unfortunately in this period i'm a bit occupied so i've only written routines to create rules.txt but i've a lot of ideas for the future.
I planned to ask you help with the .spr files in march (when i'll free up a lot of time)
but since you have beaten me i'm going to ask you now: what about joining our efforts into one single program?
CivCAD (this the name i choose but it's not important) in my opinion should be a single program able to manage all Scenario things, from map to sprites, from events (with a template to create more commons automatically) to cities (writing information directly into scn files) and a lot of other things.
I don't know if this is possible but i'm trying
Make me know what do you think, anyway i'll send you all notes i've written on map format as soon as i translate them into english.

BTW: William, i'm very interested in your events knowledge, do you think you can help me too?

Greetings,
Angelo

	08-02-2000 20:28									#5
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Angelo: My event's knowledge, sure. So your going to do an events editor great! What ever you want to know, just ask.

Programmers: IMHO, the final product should be a data base that can: Read and write scenarios, allows modeling, cutting and pasting of scenario componants, and permitts the designer to view more then on scenario at a time.

Everyone: There is a beginners tip on how to use flags on my web site, The Cradle of Civilization.

	09-02-2000 13:03									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I know everything about maps. I don't have Civ: ToT, but I do have Civ2, which shares the same map format.

	11-02-2000 02:18									#7
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William: YOU'RE RIGHT!!!
I thought to realize a simple editor able to work on a single scenario as a single block but your idea is better: in this way a scenario can be seen like a "patchwork" composed by single elements maybe created by different authors; you'll be able to recycle elements in different scenarios and so on... great!
Like i said before: i don't know if this is possible but i'll try

Mercator:
I know: searching for information on scn files i found your text about maps larger than civ2 standard, really impressive.
Have you understood the difference between the *.MP format and the map format enclosed in *.SCN files? I thought MP values were simply copied into SCN file at start but this is not true.

Greetings,
Angelo

	11-02-2000 10:35									#8
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Angelo: I'm glad you like the 'designer friendly' approch. I would like to help you in any way I could, as a former programmer myself I'm sure we will see eye to eye. What language do you work in, visual basic?. I have an Access database that is a crude form of what discribed above. Would you like to see the file structure I setup? I would be glad to write up the specs and key relations if you think it would help.

	11-02-2000 12:50									#9
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If it isn't already too late in the discussion to say so... I think a scenario editor ought to be done first because there already is a map editor. It comes with Civ2 original, and the maps for Civ2 ToT are the same format as those of Civ2 Original. Plus having a scenario editor would save the effort of specifically cheating to create units, change terrain, and most of all, having to make cities and city sizes while playing the game at the same time!

------------------
--denver87--

	12-02-2000 16:40									#10
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Sorry for taking so long to reply, I couldn'nt get on the internet until this morning.

I would very much like to partner on this project. I only know Visual Basic but I am very fluent in it and have a fair bit of free time to work on it.

I was wondering though, how would we both work on the same program at the same time? I've never worked with someone over the internet before so I'm just wodering how this would be done.
[This message has been edited by DracoOmega (edited February 12, 2000).]

	12-02-2000 20:16									#11
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Draco-
Could you release the sprite editor first? I've been waiting for it ever since you annonced you were making it. Also, I think a scenario editor would come out first, because if u can't make a good scenrio, why would you need a good map?

	13-02-2000 03:22									#12
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William:
Sure, i would like to read your DB and all other info you've collected on this topic, we have a lot of work to do
I don't have VB, i use C++ (precisely VC++) but i think this is not an insuperable problem (read below)

Draco:
The procedure is quite simple (well i've never tried on the net but "at home" it worked) we'll met (using forum,e-mail,irc,chat you've only to choose the way you prefer) and we'll discuss on the backbone of the program and how the program should be done, then we'll divide it into "atoms" (map manager,units manager,events manager and so on).
Every programmer choose the part he likes more and every one starts to develop his part, keeping others aware of development. When he ends his work he write a little documentation (functions created,parameters,return value and so on), choose another part and restart till all parts are programmed.
This approach is very natural using C++ (an object class for every programmer) but since we are 2VB against 1VC++, we have to think a way to share projects written in different languages (if you are able to create DLLs we can use them, i've heard that VC++ and VB DLLs are compatible, if all else fails we can create several mini-programs able to communicate each other with win32 messages, it's more difficult to explain than to program).

Mercator:
Do you program also? can you help us? Do you use VC++? Please i'm in minority

denver87/MGamer07:
you're right but i think that there is room for both map and scenario editor, how can you modify cities or deploy units if you cannot see a representation of game map?
But to be able to draw a representation of map the program must know how to draw a map, so the scenario editor probably must include a map editor

denver87: have you solved the "obsolete" problem?

Anyone who wants help:
if we want to make a good program we have a lot of work to do, so if someone wants to help, please post here.

PS Sorry for this long post.

Greetings,
Angelo

	13-02-2000 04:10									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm not much of a programmer, but I'll help however I can (testing, suggestions, so on). Also, just a request, when the individual editors are made (not put together yet) could u release beta versions? Well, anyways, I'll help however I can.

------------------
MGamer07
Email me here:
matt_holmes07@hotmail.com

	13-02-2000 17:33									#14
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Just one last update on Sprite Workshop before I release it since someone mentioned it.

All that's left to implement is changing the length of animations and saving the sprite file.

Sorry for so many delays on the program but it should be out in a couple of days.

	14-02-2000 06:57									#15
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If someone were to "package" up the original CIV2 - FW Map editor with only those files absolutely needed to make the existing Map-Editor run,

- Would this violate Microprose Copyright ?
- Would it upset them ?
- Would Microprose care ?

In reality such an editor is only going to be used by CIV 2 Players & Scenario & Modpack creators, so unless Microprose feels that Consumers who happen to have purchased Test-of-Time must ALSO purchase CIV2-FW or CIV2-MGE in order to run & use the Map-Editor, there would not seem to be an ethical dilemna.

I'm not suggesting doing it, I'm just asking the question.

John P. Is there a ruling from the powers that be on this ?

It seems silly to have to "reverse-engineer" the wheel.

	14-02-2000 19:17									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm not too well versed in copyright & trademark law, so I can't comment intelligently on matters like these (at least not without getting myself in hot water with the legal department ).

My personal feeling (for what that's worth) is that any "add-on" that someone created for non-commercial distribution (i.e. not selling it) is least likely to upset Hasbro so long as it doesn't contain parts of any of our products. So, for example, distributing a utility that converted the Civ2 Map Editor into a form that would work with ToT might be okay, while distributing an already converted version would not.

	15-02-2000 17:57									#17
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I know everything about maps in the .MP format. I know a whole lot about maps in savegames. I don't know all that much about the map format in scenarios, but its representation will probably look a lot like maps in savegames.

I can program, in C that is, and I'm sort of learning to work with Visual Basic. I don't think I can be of much help here.

Contact me when there's anything you need to know. I'll also look into the different map formats more and write some 'guides' about it.

	12-07-2000 17:08									#18
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1. Mr.Keenan, Can I dowload your scenario maker for access somewhere? It sounds cool
2.Where can I download the Mapeditor? If I can't,can somebody e-mail it to me?
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