24-04-2001 02:07									#1
	Diplogames? How about a "war-game" From the best war in history. Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

World War II. Clear sides and enemies, great weapons, the whole world involved, the biggest baddest best war in history. And the best way to play that war is in the 2194 Days scenario. Very well crafted.

I propose a multiplayer game to the death. Japanese & Germans vs. British, Russians and Americans. The scenario designers are wonderful, and this is arguably the best scenario for civ 2 ever.

I want to be the Germans, and Moker wants to be the Japanese, so who wants to be the allied powers?

Looking for three good players.

It'll be 1x1x, and all other rules of the scenario will be observed. Total war. No going to peace with everyone and sitting till you build up your forces, you better be ready to go right away or someone else will and you'll be in trouble. Total war the way it should be.

This sounds like an incredibly facinating game, and i'd love to play it with capable humans. Too much war, so certainly not simultaneous, it may take a long time to play, but i think it'll be worth it. What do you all think?

	24-04-2001 02:56									#2
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Emperor Moker Hito will lead the glorious japanese nation to victory


Moker

	24-04-2001 03:18									#3
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Hey, can I play? Can I be the Russians. And is it like all out war
everybody against everybody or is it the Allies versus the Axis throughout
the whole game?

	24-04-2001 03:42									#4
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Axis vs. Allies.

If you are familiar with the scenario you know that all the parties start out at war with each other, and are unable to negotiate and change it. Since tech and other things are particular and it could cause problems if we allow people to talk, i suggest that we keep this element in the game and not talk with anyone officially.

So yes, everyone will be locked in, war of allies vs. axis. Japanese & Germans vs. Russians, Americans, and British.

I recommend everyone interested get the 2194 Days Scenario http://sleague.apolyton.net/Reviews/JP_2184.shtml
and play it some to get a feel for the game, start planning things out. This should be a damn good game.

	24-04-2001 03:43									#5
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I suggest we play to the end too. Don't stop till the Axis are wiped out or until the Allies are wiped out.

	24-04-2001 03:52									#6
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Good to have you on board Easthaven.

So we've got:

Axis
-------
Germans - Ozzy
Japanese - Moker

Allies
-------
Russians - Easthaven
Britain - ?
Americans - ?

	24-04-2001 04:06									#7
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Im in for Britain, depending on the day and time we decide to play on. And yes I agree, we play until the war ends with some sort of unconditional surrender by an entire side.

	24-04-2001 08:33									#8
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I'd be happy to play Britain

	24-04-2001 08:50									#9
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Zylka, I just volunteered for Britain. Are you asking them to knock me from the game and take you instead? Thats not overly polite.

	24-04-2001 08:57									#10
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Well before we start fighting over spots we should start proposing time slots. Some people may drop who can't make such and such a time.

Thursday nights at 10 pm perhaps? Would that work for people?

	24-04-2001 11:37									#11
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Impossible, im in HOTW, which is on Thursday night. Any other night, except possibly Wenesday.

	24-04-2001 12:39									#12
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Well after a brief play test with Moker and I, I think that playing through IP would be near impossible. It took us well over an hour to get through one turn. And that was just with 2 people playing. If we had all 5 i doubt we'd be able to get through a single turn in an entire session.

So i think that unless we are all gluttons for misery, i suggest we conduct this game through email. In fact if we all do it that way it may in fact be quicker than a weekly session. I suggest that we just go in order and each player has to play his turn on a specific day depending on turn order. So the Japanese who move first would have to move by Monday night and send the game out in time for the next player, Germany to play its turn by Tuesday night. That way every week we can get through a turn at least. Though if Moker were to finish his turn at noon on Monday and send it to me and i finish by 6 pm on Monday, we could speed it up quite a bit, and we don't have to wait around for everyone to finish their turns.

It does change things quite a bit though, rush buying and responding to the enemies' actions wouldn't be possible since we all move on our own, so its something to take into consideration, but there is just waay too much to do this game live.

	24-04-2001 16:34									#13
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It's been done, and there were apparently some play balance problems. See this thread, among others.

	25-04-2001 09:43									#14
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Well i read the thread you gave me, and it looked fine to me. I don't see any problems that would hamper us.

Keep in mind that the people playing in that game were the people who created the darn thing, so they knew exactly what to move where and knew all the details that made it work. I doubt that any of us have such a detailed knowledge of this scenario. So for a game of normal people just bashing each other, i think we'll do fine.

	24-04-2001 22:15									#15
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No GNG, I simply stated my willingness to play Britain, as I would have if I got to this thread 5 minutes earlier and you hadn't posted. If your schedule is unrealistic for playing this diplo game, it might just come in handy. I don't abide by the childish rules of "I called it first", sorry.

	25-04-2001 00:58									#16
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Childish rules of who called it first? Then how do you decide who gets which spot?

	25-04-2001 01:36									#17
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Ok now settle down you two. To bad we don't have two open spots on opposing teams because it sounds like a fun rivalry is brewing between you two.

I am curious why you two are fighting over Britain when the United States is free.

And it looks like we will be playing by email because it is too damn big of a game, so there isn't really any scheduling conflicts possible. Though if one of you objects to playing by email the other can have it. Or any other conflicts arise and one of you leaves.

I'm open to hear what Zylka's ideas are for resolving this dispute if you both still want it, but since this is a fairly open game, first come first serve GNGSpam can have Britain since he "called it first".

Though both of you should be aware that USA is open, and then we can be ready to play. (Personally Britain would be my last choice, but oh well)

	25-04-2001 03:13									#18
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Why the link you provided can't work? I can't d/l it. Anyway, If you guys still have a spot open, let me know. Play by email is fine with me. ANd I don't really care which nation I will leading. I will bring them GLORY anyway.

	25-04-2001 03:22									#19
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Hmm, thats too bad, well if anyone needs the scenario get it from me via icq. My number is in my profile. Probably better that way anyways, i think there are different versions floating around out there.

	26-04-2001 02:37									#20
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Ok, I'll take the U.S.

I just have a soft spot for Britain from my axis and allies days, and because I'm a loyalist Canuck zealot

	26-04-2001 02:45									#21
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Whoops, just noticed that Sekong asked for the last spot. Have fun guys

	26-04-2001 04:19									#22
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I think you side stepped DaveV's warning a little too hastily.
Do you have any idea what a human can do as Japan on turn 1?They can take almost half the map.The US is toast if Japan is led by humans.So is Russia.Moscow can be taken on turn 1!...and then it will be Germany's turn...game over.

one suggestion is to have a 1 turn grace.

	26-04-2001 05:28									#23
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Smash on 04-25-2001 07:19 PM</font>
I think you side stepped DaveV's warning a little too hastily.
Do you have any idea what a human can do as Japan on turn 1?They can take almost half the map.The US is toast if Japan is led by humans.So is Russia.Moscow can be taken on turn 1!...and then it will be Germany's turn...game over.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

yea, a human japanese player can take over half the map, but they are all worthless cities in the south pacific. All the decent cities are in the USA anyways, and Japan can't touch them. All taking those cities will do is necessitate Japan spreading its forces thin defending them all. And how can Moscow be taken by the Japanese? I don't see much potential for the Japs to make much progress in Russia. Germany can do some good damage against USSR, but then risks loosing it all next turn by the counter attack from both sides.

Britain and USSR can do quite alot of damage to the axis, and then once USA builds up its army it could almost take on the Axis itself due to its massive production. Especially with 3 players on 2, i think this game is very well balanced. If you want to have a Chinese player or Neutral player to join in to side with the Allies, then fine, but I think the game is fairly balanced.

	26-04-2001 07:20									#24
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Japan will get crushed, they just lack the techs to sustain a war. Their ultimate weapon is the kamikaze

	26-04-2001 10:11									#25
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I guess it will depend on A.who plays the axis and B.how they choose to play.

I can tell you that it possible for Japan to capture most of Russia including Moscow,China,most of the US,the entire Pacific,Australia and make inroads into Africa on turn 1.Not easy,but possible.

Japan has all the tech it needs and freights to deliver on turn 1 to South America.This extra gold does not help the allies position.Turn 2 can be worse.....

The US loses it's entire pacific fleet on turn 1 also.Midway falls,Hawaii falls.Now Japan can reach mainland US only needing to move maybe 10-12 units for this.Transport bring up paratroops and.....then chain in.....pillage the road near....I mean most of the US units aren't even fortified.Japan also starts with a good number of imperial marines(iirc) with the amphibious assault flag.

All this with the allied advantage rules.txt.

I mentioned a one turn grace in the other games of 2194 which was ignored for pretty good reason,but it went pretty much as I thought it would.Especially with Xin playing Japan.Game over real quick.

It would have to be something like axis use end turn without doing anything.Allies are allowed to build,fortify and possibly move(not sure here) but not attack or pillage.


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Smash (edited April 26, 2001).]</font>

	26-04-2001 11:06									#26
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Not to be rude, but that is ridiculous.

Unless we are playing different versions (and i think we may) there is absolutly no way this is possible. While perhaps in a perfect world with all battles going Japan's way, and a total knowledge of which units to use to attack which cities in which order this may have a slim and remote chance of happening. But even then there is simply no way for any of Japan's units to reach some of those places. No way in hell can a single Japanese unit make it anywhere near Africa, must less past India. Plus, most of Japan's ground units are either down in the South Pacific, physically unable to reach Russian cities, and most of Japan's units in general are navy or airforce which don't have the capability of striking more than a very few Russian cities.

Is it possible you played this game with double movement? That could make a huge difference.

I deffinatly think we are talking about two different games, either that or you are delerious because what you said is simply not possible, even if some game master were playing.

	26-04-2001 13:53									#27
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nope its the same scenario.2194 days of War by Nemo.

You are right.Africa isn't until turn 3 or 4.

Look at the path thru San Fran,Salt Lake,Denver,Omaha etc.What stops a massive invasion?

I won't go thru the whole process but for Russia,step 1 is Imperial marines at Vladivostok followed by Zeros and bombers but yes it will take more than 1 turn to take Moscow.

30+ cities is quite doable.

	26-04-2001 22:51									#28
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Zylka, if you want USA it is yours. Sekong called it as much as you did initially. Since you were in on this earlier, despite trying to get Britain, its still yours. If you don't want it then Sekong can play.

Which would make the final tally at this point the following:

Axis
----------

Germany - Ozzy
Japan - Moker

Allies
----------

Britain - GNGSpam
Russia - Easthaven
USA - Zylka


So now we are ready to play. Has anyone done a PBEM game before? What exactly do we do, i don't want to screw this up. Someone give us a PBEM primer.

And how do we want to handle event files? I never paid much attention to them before, but last night i looked through them, and it could really change the game. One thing about the event files is it helps to balance out the game in single player, but if we all are playing but doing it at sepparate times it could screw it up. Lets say i start a single player game as germany, when i kill a specific russian unit they get several replacement units, or every turn the british get free units, etc. This is cool to have in single player, but if this game is sent to russia then they have all sorts of free units, and then germany gets free units too. So all players would be dependent on the crap load of free units they all get rather than having to build them themselves. Which i feel is part of the bonus of the allies, especially USA. If everyone gets free units anyways because of event files, then USA getting great production doesn't mean quite as much.

Some of the events are really cool though, so i'm reluctant to just get rid of them. But if anything is going to unbalance the game it might be them. Perhaps we could get Nemo & Alex to tweak them a bit to be more playable with multiplayer. Or one of us could do it.

I dunno, let me know what you all think.

	26-04-2001 23:10									#29
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Smash on 04-26-2001 04:53 AM</font>

Look at the path thru San Fran,Salt Lake,Denver,Omaha etc.What stops a massive invasion?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Well it is physically impossible for Japanese land troops to reach the mainland till at least the second turn, which gives the USA enough time to build up some defense.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I won't go thru the whole process but for Russia,step 1 is Imperial marines at Vladivostok followed by Zeros and bombers but yes it will take more than 1 turn to take Moscow.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Many turns to make it that far, plus i imagine the Russian player won't be sitting idly by, he'll be conducting a counter attack.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>30+ cities is quite doable.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Yes, it is, but all those cities are piddly population 2, production 1 cities in the south pacific. All Japan can really get right away are the island cities and China. Which is how it happened in the real War anyways. Japan conquered all the islands quite early in the war, but didn't have the resources to fight a long war and the "sleeping bear" of the Americans built up their forces and took it all back. That is entirely possible in this game. Plus give it a few turns, and American technology will certainly surpass the Japanese and they will have a great edge. Zylka is a pretty good player, he'll do fine.

I think the game is balanced. I had to do this same kind of talk with Moker to convince him Japan had a chance, because he thought it was weighted too far to the Americans.

	26-04-2001 23:33									#30
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hehehe..thats why he snapped up Japan.

Oh well,good luck and have fun.