13-02-2000 08:16									#1
	Major Networking bug Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've recently discovered an incredible bug in Civ 2 Gold Edition, even with the very latest patch. Try this out - start a multiplayer game with two Macs. Take a look at the 'In the beginning' box on both machines, which displays information about the Civ plus initial knowledge items. The server machine may have around two or three initial knowledge items, but check the client machine - it won't have any. In fact, I've tested this many times, with all patches, and the client machine never gets any extra knowledge items! I emailed Brian Nesse about it, and initially he said there was no problem. However, he tried it a few times himself, and then realised there was a problem. We had a few email chats about it, and he has checked the code, and found the problem - however, he can't fix it - fixing it, would stop Mac-PC networking work. The PC version needs fixed first, before we can fix the port, however apparently the Civ 2 PC team have been got rid of - network games just aren't fair at the moment! What can we do?

	13-02-2000 14:07									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

the same thing everybody else does:restart until its "even"

I assume you mean the well known host tech advantage?or is this something else?
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited February 13, 2000).]

	13-02-2000 20:45									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Oh, right! I missunderstood until Smash posted! DOH! Aside from restart, you could promise to give everyone extra Techs as soon as you have Diplomats. If it is something else, like more detailed information in the Game menu, you could always share the infor to compensate. The Kings Chat is useful for more that just sharing recipes! Just ask Finbar and THE DEITY!

------------------
Different is GOOD!

AOL IM--JacSamDad

	13-02-2000 23:44									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

well I wouldn't do that.Restart is the only option.Free techs,in the hands of a half decent player is a HUGE lead.They will have Monarchy years before others and the free techs do not count in the culmative beaker count.Can you say "catch up" all game?Course that is great fun to try and catch up to or slow down a major power.

Even 1 extra is huge advantage as Monarchy invariably require you to research at least 1 non pre requisit.


There used to be an "embassy's from start" option but gifting any free techs to others just adds many turns to early research

It doesnt usually take more than 3-4 trys max to get a no host tech start on deity.Not sure about other levels but I have started king level games with no techs as host so it is possible.

	14-02-2000 03:38									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Didn't realise that this was a well known bug. Initially I had assumed it was well known, as it's so big, but after I emailed Brian Nesse and he said he hadn't noticed it before, I began to wonder. I understand your suggestions to restart until the server gets no extra tech, but I'm still amazed that such a major bug can go unfixed. No wonder my girlfriend was always beating me!

Restarting so that the server gets no extra tech has a problem in itself. The reason that players are supposed to get extra tech, as I'm sure you know, is to provide balances - for example, if the player is in poor land or near another tribe, he may get some extra tech. If we keep restarting until both players get no extra tech, the client may still be at a disadvantage - we don't know if the computer would have given the client extra tech for balance - if so, the client is still at a disadvantage. Ugh, I'm so fed up with this! Bugs in Civ 2 Gold have dragged on and on since I bought the game and every time I think everything is going to be fixed, I find out it's not. Let's just hope we get Civ 3 on the Mac

	14-02-2000 04:07									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

you are quite right the game gives tech to compensate for terrain,proximity etc.Also a second settler at Emp or lower is also used to "compensate"

it is a problem.You really cant get a totally even start due to this.The main problem is multiplayer was an afterthought to single player.Since we must follow pcs,and since i think that side is still handled by microprose,its not likely a fix would be done.

Hopefully,the multiplayer aspect will be "kept in mind" for Civ3.Based on sales for MAC civ2 and MAC civMGE we will see it for sure.

	14-02-2000 04:56									#7
	Got spare money?

I've never known client players to get bonus techs on Deity. I've started in the most Godawful positions with the usual I, M and R.

Am I dense? Or doesn't restarting until the host has no bonus techs achieve an, as it were, level playing field? How can the client player be disadvantaged?

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	15-02-2000 00:56									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

The client player may or may not be disadvantaged,


Think of the game from a single player point of view.When you start, the game determines if you are going to get extra techs.It does this based on several factors such as terrain and proximity to other civs etc.When you get lots of techs it usually means there are civs close by and/or you get dirt.When you get no techs,it usually means you have decent terrain and a fair amount of land to yourself.Or so goes the theory.

So one could conclude that a no tech start for the host should give decent terrian close by.Or good specials close by.

So a civ plopped in the middle of the Sahara would get techs to compensate but since humans are the opponents they just get dirt without compensation.

No techs.Your settler is on a nice river system.My settler is in a swamp.Who has the advantage?
Now,if I have bronze and alpha,who has the advantage?

sorry if this doesn't make sense


ps..if you want extra techs as a non host player join the game a turn or 2 after it starts.In other words let the ai run your civ for 1 turn.You may have to settle for a less than ideal location for city #1 but ais almost always get free techs to start
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited February 14, 2000).]

	15-02-2000 05:01									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Makes sense. The host tech thing is obviously a hangover from the SP mode.

But harking back to Gavin Smith's first post in the thread, we're a damn sight better off now than we were when MPG was first released. And, yes, it can be argued we shouldn't have had to deal with a bugged game in the first place, but the reality is that our version is ported from a seriously-flawed base product, and I suspect Mr Nesse's done a damn sight more for us than Microprose has ever done for the PC-ers.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	15-02-2000 05:35									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

you got that straight!I remember delivering my first caravan half way round the map only to find it froze the whole game.Coddling the ai into exchanging maps with the same result.It was unplayable out of the box.

	16-02-2000 06:09									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

HERE! HERE! Finbar is absolutely right! I am very grateful for the service that Brian Nesse and MacSoft has provided us. Note: I included "MacSoft" as they could easily have decided that "it's as good as the PC version, let's move on to a new project." We collectively need to send Brian an "Atta-boy"!

------------------
Different is GOOD!

AOL IM--JacSamDad