23-12-1999 06:06									#1
	Poll #1: REAL TIME OR TURN BASED? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

poll ended, see the results on the bottom of the thread
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited January 30, 2000).]

	23-12-1999 08:26									#2
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Whatever works is fine by me.

However, having some sort of real time elements could be incredibly cool. It would give the player a little less control over his beasties which would make sense considering the general intelligence of dinosaurs. It would also add a new challenge - total micromanagement of the units would be impossible.

	23-12-1999 13:38									#3
	Got spare money?

I might be totally wrong but let's try.

How was the engine built in Sid Meier´s Gettysburg? (It was Sid´s game) I haven´t played SMG, so is there anyone who can tell.
IIRC it has some sort of RT.

Jeje2

	23-12-1999 18:49									#4
	Got spare money?

Well, you controlled the fraction of army you had for use in each part of the battle. Smallest unit was regiment, towhich you could issue orders like advance, hold, skirmish line, charge, and so on. You could also, of course, have it move to some location. If it saw enemy, it would face it and shoot at it. Regiments made up brigades, which could be given some commands as one, mainly they could move as a front. To this purposes were their commanders used. Having commander nearby also helped to improve unit morale, which was also improved by things like unbroken line. Unit morale was what stopped unit from panicking and becoming routed. Gettysburg was great fun, as to win you had to take care of formations and such, you had to learn when to charge and how to stop a charge, how to flank, and so on, but I highly doubt that it would fit in Dinosaurs game, as great dinosaur formations were rare to exist.

	23-12-1999 20:57									#5
	Remove this text

Besides SMG (Sid Meiers bGettysburg) is real-time all the time. However you could pause the game, then give your regiments/brigades new commands, unpause and see the effect. This was quite helpful.

Btw, I voted "not sure". I dont really know.

Ata

	24-12-1999 02:08									#6
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Turn-based, no question.

	24-12-1999 02:53									#7
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Real time. Not even sid can take civ out. It is out of control

	24-12-1999 05:17									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'd like it to be Turn-based myself, but it Should have some real-time in it. One of the factors of power in the dinosaurs is your speed, if I'm not mistaken. I dunno.

I just think if you're going to have a battle with dino's it would have to be real-time...t-b dino battles would stink like rotten fish (i.e. the dino scen. in civ2 mge). I think TB game with RT battles would be cool, or a RT with TB elements in it.

Dan Frampton

	24-12-1999 07:51									#9
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Yeah, I just don't see what they can do with turn based combat. What, are the dinosaurs going to bump into one another and then lose hit points until one of them dies, like in Civ? That would be a stupid waste of your prehistoric setting. You'd lose any sense of immersion and be constantly jerked back to reality by the mechanics of the game system.

I want to see dinosaurs running around the plains like something out of Jurassic Park. I want to see dinosaur battles like something out of a Ray Harryhausen film. Okay, so the actual mechanics of combat will be the same as turn based. But the fights will be interesting to watch. And you will sort of feel like you are visiting the distant past.

Turn based is fine for Civ3. But if you make D! just Civilization with dinosuars, then it will just be.....well, Civilization with dinosaurs.
[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited December 23, 1999).]

	24-12-1999 10:46									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The unrealistic combat could be overcome by Lords of the realm style combat. This is where when you bump into the other army you take over combat in real time, which can also be auto calculated. This would satisfy both real timers and turn baseders, although it would get a bit tedious after a while.


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	26-12-1999 00:19									#11
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HAS TO BE RTS.
PERIOD.

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	26-12-1999 03:34									#12
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(Sarcastic comment removed - it's Christmas afterall)

[This message has been edited by Cam (edited December 25, 1999).]

	26-12-1999 10:44									#13
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I want a WEGO TB system where the turns are simultaneous for all sides and the orders are carried out between turns. I fail to see the need for combat in this game other than an interesting variant of hunting.:-)

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St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	27-12-1999 11:29									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think the basic game should be turn based. Real Time Combat should be optional because many people play civ because they hate fighting games. Of course if this isn't going to be a civ game....then why the heck is it part of the civ trilogy?

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	27-12-1999 14:47									#15
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WAIT! Did you say Dinosaurs AND real time? We are talking about millions of years here. Before deciding, I would like to have a rough estimate on the time scale conversion... If I got the first rumors right, the game covers themes of evolution in living beings. RT would then mean 1 Mio. years per second. Talking about micromanagement of units - forget it! In that case, I'd consider management in a very abstract, god-like sense, like in the Popolous game. I think it is too early yet to give opinions on RT vs. TB.

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	28-12-1999 04:37									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

RT would then mean 1 Mio. years per second.

Not unless you want the whole game to end in less than five minutes.:-)


Hunting Mode

Tactical combat as demonstrated by Birth of the Federation (Microprose) would be perfect for hunting. We would order the hunting party(?) to circle, charge, etc. the prey through lush environments. The orders are given in simultaneous turns and action between turns is then 3D rendered.;-)

------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	10-01-2000 03:40									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have to admit that I'm prejudiced in terms of Turn-based games. I guess the shortest reason I can give is that I play these sorts of games so that I can test thought and strategy....I fire up my race-car games when I want to test reflexes.

Some mix of turn-based and real-time might not be bad. Turn based strategic game with a real-time fighting system might be ok. But particularly, I'd rather have the overall decisions made at a pace where the player has time to think. I'll say this, if two companies released "Dinosaur Civilizations" and "Age of Dinosaurs", I'd buy the Dinosaur Civilization game.

Every once in awhile I pick up a real-time game (from a discount bin) because I've heard what a great game it is. For example, I picked up Age of Empires a while back. It was OK for a while, but it doesn't take too long till I get sick and tired of having to keep checking on those serfs to make sure they are all cutting down their little trees. Gets old quickly and game then gets uninstalled.

To me, a real-time system would have to have controls for controlling your forces that are an order of magnitude better than anything I've seen yet.
BTW, you could do a turn-based, phase-based combat game that would work very well....and which would reflect the speed of the dino's. For example, I like MOO2's combat system a lot.....and speed of ships does play an important role there. Speed ends up controlling how far you can move in a certain phase/turn. This allows speedier forces to combine on an enemies wing, get around to their flanks, and control the range of the combat. And it works very nicely in a turn-based combat system.

	18-01-2000 10:15									#18
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Try Imperium Galactica II demo. It shows how real time could be implemented for civ type game. It is done pretty good, though I believe, it could be done much better. I would like Sid to try RT for Dino game, I have seen enough Civ TB clones (including SMAC). Moreover, Brian is working on Civ III now, which is probably TB.

MxM

	18-01-2000 10:49									#19
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As has already been noted, other TBS games that had "dynamic combat" also had the benefit of ranged weapons, which inherently change the dynamic of the fight.

But dinos won't have that, so in TB mode you'll likely end up with a blob of dinos vying to stand next to or away from a target (like an old Ultima game, or something). The tedium of such a thing would be hard to describe.

But if at least the combat were in RT mode, not only would claw-to-claw combat feel more realistic, it would go a long way toward keeping the game from simply becoming a number cruching test of map positioning. To take such ferocious (or just big and dangerous) creatures and slow them to the crawl of TBS would indeed be a shame.

However, the overall tactical side of things could still be done in TB mode.

	19-01-2000 05:34									#20
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My vote is for RTS, but I'd like to discuss some points.
First of all, we (or maybe only me) don't even know for sure what will be Sid's focus in the game.
Are we going to have a gene planning game? Or a quick scaring action game, were tactical battles are the point (and dinos are your army)?
I believe the game may be something more like "change the environment and see what's the difference in the dinos". If that's the case, why worry so much about the battle system?
I think that the RT system would be better. Not only because it simply smashes TB in multiplayer, but because it makes the game much more dynamic.
A TB may be needed if the number of option to control your dinos grow too big. In Civ, it would be nearly impossible to control all your units and check all your bases production and population by the same time you take the researching and diplomatic decisions.

novice

	19-01-2000 06:26									#21
	Got spare money?

Well, novice, I don't (and some others don't) give a damned about multiplayer! We want a good TBS game with great AI. That is how I'd like to see Dinos! It'd have to be a gene-developing mass-world scale TBS, with many random factors and wierd things happening... Of course the combat could be optional RT, but if the whole game is RT, then I probably won't buy it, and neither will most of Sid Meier's fans...

	19-01-2000 09:41									#22
	Remove this text

Imran, didn't you think SMG! was brilliant? Sure, it had limited replay value for me, but that was a VERY well done RT game from Sid. He'd be the first to tell you he's not only about TBS. He's about making games fun to play, but as Novice notes, we don't know what kind of game this is yet. If it's an Age of Dinos, RT is almost a foredrawn conclusion. If it's deep game with lots intricate decisions to be made, well, then, you'll be happy!
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited January 18, 2000).]

	19-01-2000 11:00									#23
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BTW, I do not agree with Sid's opinion (he-he, look at this ) stated in the diary's table that RTS does not have "deep thought" instead it has "fast action". Take city building games for example (Sim City or Cesar III) they are not fast action games. I think that the key point is game design. If you want you can make TBS as a "fast action" game, which is may be a little bit difficult, but take for example turn based combat in Jagged Alliance 2. And RTS game could be really long. Take, again, Sim City as an example. So, I do not see a reason why civ type game can't be of a "deep thought" and RTS. Again, I think that Imperium Galactica II is a good step in that dirrection.

I do not see huge difference in what to use for the game. With 2 exception: 1) multiplayer is better in RTS (which personally I do not care) and 2) RTS typically looks better and feels much more realistic (which I do care). Notice also that there no much civ type RTS on the market, and I would like to try one.

So again my choice is RTS!!!

[This message has been edited by MxM (edited January 19, 2000).]

	19-01-2000 15:31									#24
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SimCity and Ceasar aren't true RTS games because you can pause them and do stuff.

	20-01-2000 03:44									#25
	Tired of ads?

I give a big damn about multiplayer.
BTW, you people should check the post Multiplayer if you can, Glak.'s got some excellent posts there, I think maybe the best ones in this forum.

novice

	20-01-2000 07:01									#26
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Biddles: "SimCity and Ceasar aren't true RTS games because you can pause them and do stuff."

You can also do it in the games like Age of Empires II: AOK and in many other games, so what is you point? If they are not true RTS, then let the Dinos be "not true" RTS.

MxM
[This message has been edited by MxM (edited January 19, 2000).]

	22-01-2000 10:47									#27
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MxM, I must disaggree with you.
If you pause an AoK game you'll be able to cycle around the map, but youn't be able to give your units orders.
By the way, AoK doesn't have a good represantation of the 15th century warfare, not at all! The 15th century is marked by the rise to the power of the portuguese, that marked that century by great technological advances on the ships construction and navegations, and found a new way to the India and reached Brazil. That's why native inhabitants of America are called Indians, because when Colombo (now riding for the Spanish) reached America, he thought he was in India and called the native inhabitants by Indians.

I study the American Independence and the French Revolution, WTF don't you study it?

	21-01-2000 23:15									#28
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MxM, how many TBS games have you played?

	22-01-2000 00:25									#29
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It should be TBS in the grand tradition of the CIV & SMAC engine. In my mind Real Time is for 3D strategy shooters.

	30-01-2000 18:54									#30
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and the final results are...

Real Time or Turn Based for a Dinosaurs game?

Real Time	102 / 20%
Turn Based	252 / 51%
Mix of RT and TB	107 / 21%
Not sure/No opinion	30 / 6%

491 total votes