18-11-1999 21:17									#1
	Poisoning (w/Spy) Suffering from ads?

Isn't this just such a BS power to give the Spy? Especially for player with Leos, transports, and espionage. Can take off 9 (NINE!) population off of any coastal city and there is nothing that you can do about it. Chance of capture is low, and stays low, city does not get "wary of your efforts", which means you can keep doing it, ie you can do it again in 1-3 turns.

if enemy is Democ: 9 population off a city is bad news. Thats all the shields (which support democ units), trade, and food. 9 pop gone every so often is really bad news.

but its worse for undemoc: transport arrives, up to 8 pop gone, last one bribes. a Communist with a Courthouse, with big treasury, with close to cap, can still be fairly easily bribed if the city is size 1.

Only defences: If your a democ, do it first. It is probably best attack for a democ since Spies require no support. If your a Commie or Fundy, CONTROL THE SEAS! If the enemy has Leos, you must build Magellans, and patrol the coasts of both yours and his homeland. One of the few uses of having a destroyer mass, to locate and kill his transports.

Comments about the BSness of Poison Wells?

I haven't seen anyone do it yet in MP since we all use our diplos as soon as they are built.

	19-11-1999 01:31									#2
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(bump)

	19-11-1999 01:51									#3
	Got spare money?

I didn't realize they could do it more than once per turn. Thanks for the warning! It is total BS.

	19-11-1999 02:12									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm pretty ignorant of spies' abilities, but it seems to me it would be equally bad for a democracy to have 8 improvements destroyed. Could even precipitate the fall of your government. Or is destroying improvements somehow more difficult than poisoning?

	19-11-1999 03:00									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

This is one of my favorite tactics against "The Scientist".Super science city and universities are not much good at size 1 or 2

	19-11-1999 03:03									#6
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Why Poison is BS and blowing up improvements isn't:

-if u attempt to blow up a specific city improvement, is more difficult, plus is greater chance that they capture before success.

- blow up any target, they will get more wary.

- he can buy back improvements, right away in MP if he wants. Against an AI, you cant force Democracy to fall.

- losing 9 population is always worse than losing 4-5 city improvements. A player can have all kinds of libraries, courthouse, superhighways, but if the city is size 1-3?...

-Democrat perfectionists will sometimes not build tons of cities on a small island, instead build big cities + lots of caravans. If you decimate their population when gold is low, the expenses of all those improvements will be deadly...

-Killing lots of trade, shields, and food for many turns is better. Most dems aren't CONTINUALLY in WLTPD, bringing back 9 pop is SLOOW, even if in WLTPD (which means their luxuries are really high) for long time, it takes a long time and all those spies are already coming back on the NEXT transport...

	19-11-1999 03:08									#7
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Oh, btw, I consider the Leo's pretty necessary so that all your production isn't tied down making spies once you have Esp., once you have Writing, make a couple of extra diplos you dont use every turn and fortify them till u have Esp.

wierd special case: A pure ICS'r would be a Democ (unbribable), and his cities would always be small with few or no improvements ANYWAY, so it wouldn't work...in which case, you can build cavalry faster than he can build settlers.

	19-11-1999 06:18									#8
	Tired of ads?

But if you don't pick a specific target dips and spys will bat 1.000 when sabotaging.This is terribly unfair.A transport full of dips can decimate a good science/sheild/trade city in a single turn.
You can station dips or spys to try and stop it but if I understand correctly you will need 5 dips or 2 vet spys to have a good chance at thwarting the attempt.In every city.Thats a big effort in addition to a conventional defense.Courthouses don't seem to do a thing against these tactics.

	19-11-1999 21:27									#9
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"I consider the Leo's pretty necessary so that all your production isn't tied down making spies once you have Esp., once you have Writing, make a couple of extra diplos you dont use every turn and fortify them till u have Esp"

I don't see the point of this at all. The shield cost of the spy is the same as the diplomat, so nothing is saved by building the diplomat and then upgrading. To me, shields are at a premium in the ancient and renaissance stages of the game. I would much rather build caravans and improvements. And the upgraded spy will not be a vet. In the industrial age, with factories built, those 30 shields have much less impact on my overall production. Plus, under Communism you can churn out vet spies. It makes no sense to me to build a unit just to let it sit around for 100 turns when I could build something and get a return on my shield investment.

	19-11-1999 23:21									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Sorry, I'm not seeing what's so bad about spies poisoning water to reduce the pop. Same thing happens when you lay siege to a city by placing units on surrounding squares either permanently or to pillage irrigation/railway/roads. One way or another you destroy the population.

	20-11-1999 06:23									#11
	Suffering from ads?

Poisoning is part of the game. If its an important city, use settlers to build its population back up to eight. But the best defence is a good offence: partol the seas, and checkport your roads.

	21-11-1999 00:24									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Couldn't you just have one or two spies in each of your cities if you're seriously paranoid about enemy spies?????? Aren't they supposed to act a counter-espionage agents?

	21-11-1999 04:04									#13
	Suffering from ads?

You could, but one must also look out for advancing armies and armadas.