19-11-1999 07:42									#1
	ottok's challenge Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Over in the MAC forum,ottok has wondered if anybody has landed without building any improvements.Sounds like it wouldn't be too hard on lower levels but deity might be interesting.You're gonna need some happy wonders to grow to any decent size at all.And without libraries,markets etc beakers will be at a premium.Caravans up the ying yang I guess.

So?Has anybody done this?

	19-11-1999 14:12									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oh, I guess I miss read this as the challenge of Ottok.

It does seem like a curious challenge though.
[This message has been edited by johnmcd (edited November 19, 1999).]

	19-11-1999 19:19									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Does no improvements also mean no wonders? If so, I think it's impossible. But with the super-science wonders, you can still generate a fair number of beakers in one city (although only 50% of the beakers you'd have if you also had library and university). The AIs can also be persuaded to do a good deal of your research for you.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited November 19, 1999).]

	19-11-1999 20:21									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

No improvements also means no aqueducts, so your science city could never grow past size 8. This also means that you should place your cities closer together than you normally would (unless you normally play ICS)

	20-11-1999 10:30									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I was hoping when I saw this topic that the challenge would be a scenario written by ottok in his own inimitable, delightful brand of English. It would add a cryptography angle to the game which it is sorely missing. It could also make negotitations with AI civs rather interesting:

They: "WE you demand wars tex on bumasdtesnd"
You: "Come again?"
They: "Thank for us give the secrets of Monarchy and Gunpowder."
You: "What?"
They: "And 2000 gol. Tank you. We declar alwar!"

Anyway, that sounded like a more fun challenge. I'm not sure about no improvements and a space launch -- I think it's really only possible by beating everyone down so severely that they're not a threat and then building a spaceship.

Don't take this to be a rip on ottok -- a delightful and creative personality comes through in all of his messages, and I always enjoy reading his comments.

	20-11-1999 01:26									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

DaveV has it, and of course the deity!
_" The Romans?"_
look at his long story it...
it in so called catalyst to mee ask who can too and when.

p.s. next topics i tell more why mee ask it!

	20-11-1999 02:40									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, you have to be allowed wonders otherwise you will have a civ of size 8 cities full of Elvi'.No barracks=no veterans,so war academy would be needed for an effective army.After awhile your army would be outdated so veteran status will be critical if war is your way to limit the ai.

It would be very tough to generate the beakers needed later in the game.Perhaps "encouraging" 1 or 2 ai civs to flourish and stealing techs would be an important tactic.

After giving this more thought,it might not be all that easy at lower levels.Conquering without improvements-no sweat,but spaceship?

ottok-have you done this?

	23-11-1999 02:28									#8
	Suffering from ads?

Argh....It is becoming increasingly apparent that in order to have a shot at this,I'm gonna need one of those 100+ city civs.No thanks!This is impossible.At least for me

	23-11-1999 04:21									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Try it on a small map. I'm trying on a small world and have about 20 cities at the moment. Its about 1700AD and i'm leading in the tech race and have most of the wonders so am doing ok.