21-09-2000 03:38									#1
	Will science improvements work this time? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I may not remember all the facts, but for CTP, Celestial Dawn produced a mod which fixed an error he explains as resulting in gold multiplying improvements being better at producing science than the science improvements (which he explains with a very neat spreadsheet).

Later, someone from Activision argued there was no such problem.

One question:

In CTP II is science still computed the same way as it was in CTP?



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	21-09-2000 20:57									#2
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Yeah I too hope that this has been fixed!

Ata

	22-09-2000 04:28									#3
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sorry to break it to you mate...
if you knew how to use the improvements in ctp the science improvements are VERY useful....

	22-09-2000 18:46									#4
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Hey wow, great post. Thanks for the insight.

	25-09-2000 23:37									#5
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Pin: I don't believe your statement is in dispute.
The issue is that the gold producing improvements were VERY MUCH MORE useful.

If you crank out all the numbers you will see clearly that when faced with the choice between a gold or a science improvement for the purpose of increasing science produced, the choice is simple, gold. Not only do they produce more science but they ALSO produce gold. No one is suggesting that science improvements should not be built. They should simply wait until all gold improvements are finished.

Also your post seems to suggest there is some other manner to use them than simply building them. Is there something that you do with these improvement other than build them and let them sit there?

Gedrin

	26-09-2000 16:16									#6
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I suppose Pin means that you have to assign scientists in the cities that built the improvements for them to take effect.

	26-09-2000 23:33									#7
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Good point Maestro.

Trouble is that I'm pretty sure bankers working in gold improvements were in general at least as effective at producing science as a scientist was and also produced gold and preculded the need to build and pay for the science improvements until there was nothing else important to build. But I don't have those numbers handy anymore so I'm not actually certain.

Gedrin

	27-09-2000 06:58									#8
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Hey Guys,

I haven't posted much around here so I figured I should introduce myself. I'm the Lead Game Designer on CPT2 and I've noticed a bunch of questions about certain features in CTP2 and how specific concerns have been addressed. Hopefully, I can lay your fears to rest.

As far as Science and Gold, we've adjusted the system so that stuff that effects Gold only effects Gold and stuff that effect Science only effects Science. To help clear up the issue we've changed the name of the resource that is collected from the terrain to Commerce. Commerce is the only thing that effects both Science and Gold. Only after Commerce has been split into Science and Gold are the Improvement/Wonder/Specialist modifiers added to their respective resources. Improvements like Bazaars, Banks, and Brokerages will only effect Gold, they can never increase the Science output. Likewise only Scientist give additional Science. Merchants give Gold directly and that's it. We have added a set of Tile Imporvements (like the Farms and Mines) that do increase Commerce. These Tile Improvements will effect both Science and Gold.

Hopefully, this change will make the game a bit more interesting and keep the balance correct between the different Improvements.

Keep the questions coming and I'll answer them as best I can. We're all super busy right now trying to finish the game but I want you all to know that your feedback has been critical to the development of CTP2. The team spent alot of time from the very the beginning reading the various comments and suggestions, particularly those here on Apolyton, and have tried to address all the major issues. I'm real proud of how the game is turning out and I hope you guys enjoy it too.

	27-09-2000 09:02									#9
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*beams with collective pride*

Thanks for keeping us up to date...and welcome!

MarkG, you better give Dave a title so that we can spot him easily.

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- MKL
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	27-09-2000 10:04									#10
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Sounds good.

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	27-09-2000 10:20									#11
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he got one MKL

	27-09-2000 18:38									#12
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Every tile producing commerce which is then divided into science and gold: thats the Civ2 system. In Civ2 every tile produced trade which was then divided into gold and science.

Of course this should not sound negative. I just noticed!

Ata

	27-09-2000 20:20									#13
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Ahh, there he is! Thanks Mark

	27-09-2000 20:38									#14
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Yes, I noticed too that it was just like the civ2 system. But then is CTP really all that different?

Tiles produce X which is split into A and B according to a percentage.
Now if we call:
X = Trade
A = Gold
B = Science
we have Civ/Civ2.

If we call
X = Gold
A = Gold
B = Science
we have CTP... and a little confusion due to naming

If we call
X = Commerce
A = Gold
B = Science
it seems we will have CTP2.

This diff I believe Dave is refering to here is that Gold improvements/Merchants will affect A in CTP2 as they did in Civ2. In CTP they affected X in therefore affected both A and B.

I think the solution stated by Dave is excellent. It will keep the two resources relatively seperate while at the same time permitting earning potential to be sacrificed for science.

Gedrin