18-11-1999 00:58									#1
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I would like to get some feedback on trade routes. Are they important if you want to go with science? People talk about getting 1000 arrows. I can't even come close to that. When I establish trade routes i get only 2-5 arrows from the route. How do you get so many. I currently play at prince level. I am a semi-micromanager who is into quick discoveries with large cities.

	18-11-1999 01:04									#2
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When people talk about 1000 arrows for a trade route they are talking about the one time bonus. You get the same number of science beakers toward your next advance as you do gold for the treasury. When you are delivering trade goods, a bigger city, that is farther away and has some trade specials like whales or gems will give you bigger bonuses, and more "per-turn" arrows.

	18-11-1999 01:12									#3
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A minor clarification to what Sten Sture said: distance does, indeed, play a big part in the one-time bonus. But it doesn't matter for the continuing, "per-turn" arrows. Otherwise, most of the things that increase your bonus will also increase the "per-turn" arrows.

	18-11-1999 01:13									#4
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What is the most arrows people have had one city produce and how did you achieve it?

	18-11-1999 01:24									#5
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Trade is essential if you plan to win through science. Trade arrows are the source of all your coins, grails and flasks.

To get a large amount of trade arrows in one city: Find a spot near some good trade specials (grapes, spice, gold, silk are mighty nice; whales are good too). If the spot has rivers, you hit the jackpot. Build a city there. Build the Colossus wonder and Shakespeare's Theatre wonder. Build roads in every square in the city radius; irrigate every plain and grassland square. Change to Republic; Use WLT*D to grow the city to max size. Be sure to build farmland later on to grow even more. Send caravans to the largest AI cities you can find.

Trade routes generate more arrows when the cities involved generate more arrows, so the more trade you get, the more you get. Just like life, huh! A route that is only worth 5 arrows at first will be worth many more as the city grows.

By now your city should be the tradingest town on the map, but there's still more you can do. 1) delay discovery of flight as long as possible; 2) go for automobile; 3) build superhighways. Wow, look what happened:

1. Republic or Democracy gives extra trade arrow wherever at least one already exists;
2. Colossus gives extra trade arrow wherever at least one already exists;
3. Superhighway gives 50% more arrows to aquares with roads;
4. 3 trade routes should bring in ca. 20 arrows each by now

p.s. the city I describe will crank out massive amounts of flasks if you build the Copernicus and Newton wonders in it.

	18-11-1999 17:59									#6
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I've read many of the old threads about trade, and you all have me absolutely convinced of its importance. I could see great benefits in my last game.

However, I agree with the originator of this thread -- I'm not getting anywhere near the kinds of gold and trade bonuses that people on this board routinely refer to. From a size 16 city with a good trade item, to a size 8 AI city (largest available) on a different continent, I might get 250 gold.

I do build a science city with the key wonders. However I send out caravans from that one early, to start generating trade early. At that point in the game it's only size 4 to 8, and the AI cities even smaller. Should I be waiting until later to start my science city caravans? (But then I'd lose the early benefit.)

How the heck are you getting a thousand or more gold from your non-science cities?

I have the MGE version -- is it possible that trade bonuses were reduced, or (more likely) am I missing something?

	18-11-1999 20:24									#7
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At the beginning of the game the trade bonuses are smaller, perhaps because the AI civilizations are in Despotism or Monarchy rather than Republic or Democracy. Also, because the source city has few trade routes, it will have fewer trade arrows, hence the caravan will be less valuable. When people report the size of their trade routes, they probably report the really big ones, not the smaller ones. I have acted this way. Don't worry about it. Get what you can from each caravan.

One way trade routes help is that they make it easier to get We Love the ? Days. If you have a Republic or Democratic government your city can grow and that seems to make the trade route even more valuable. Also, when you deliver a caravan try to deliver it to a city with lots of roads, whales, and fish. You will want the destination city to have a lot of trade as well. It will help if the destination city needs the commodity you are delivering.

Before you actually deliver the caravan zoom into the source city and alter the location of all workers so that you have the maximum trade possible. Don't worry about food or shields. If the destination city is one of yours, do the same for that city. Before you end the turn MAKE SURE YOU RESET THE WORKERS. If you don't you will likely leave your city undefended.

From time to time cities change the trade goods they produce. If you build three caravans so that your city can no longer produce anything but food, build something else. Generally, in a short time your city will be able to trade some new commodity.

What really speeds the aquisition of new sciences is the delivery of caravans. Build lots of caravans. If you don't have a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan. It is my opinion that the one time bonuses are more important for the aquisition of new sciences than the science you get from the trade route. If you get 500 science beakers from the delivery of a caravan and a trade route of size 5 then it will take about 100 turns for the trade route to generate the same amount of science as the delivery of a caravan. The exact number of turns will depend upon your science rate and whether you have a library, university, or research lab. Other than in my science city, I rarely build libraries or universities. I find caravans are more effective ways of generating science.

Hopefully this is worth $.02.

	18-11-1999 20:30									#8
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$.02?? That was worth a whole lot more, jpk

	18-11-1999 21:52									#9
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I'm not clear on this trade bonus thing. I understand it is a one-time only thing. But when does it occur. Is it when my caravan arrives at a city for the first time? The first delivery of a particular product?

Another one: is it better to spread a product around? If for example 4 cities "demand hides", is it better to vary the destination or should I always send hides to the city with the largest number shown? Which is what I tend to do.

Thanks.

	19-11-1999 10:31									#10
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MyOlde - When you deliver a caravan to a city you get a message like: "Trade caravan arrives in Thebes, 305 gold" That statement means you also get 305 beakers toward your science accumulation, as seen in the science advisor screen.

Generally larger cities have more trade arrows produced, but a size 5 on a rivers with a whale might have more trade than a size 7 city on plains without trade specials. And you get a bigger bonus for deliverying your caravan to a foreign civ, especially if it is on a different land mass than the city that built the caravan.

	18-11-1999 23:07									#11
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MyOlde,

There are some tactical considerations involved in whether you keep running your caravans to the same city, or spread the wealth. Only the builder of the caravan gets the one-time bonus, but both cities benefit from the trade route. So if you're sending caravans to your own cities, you probably want to send the caravan to a city that doesn't have three trade routes already. On the other hand, sending all of your caravans to a single AI city will maximize your benefit and minimize the AIs'.

	19-11-1999 05:20									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

To get an idea how important a caravan or freight is for your science:

i) Before entering the destination city, check with your science advisor (F6) and see where the beakers approximately end.

ii) Close the science advisor and send in the camel.

iii) Go back to the science chief and rejoice!

This procedure has become an addiction in itself to me. I just have to know, every time, in every game...

Even though the bonus is lower in the early game, trading is still important. The reason is the smaller amount of beakers you need for each advance. A 250 gold bonus might almost fill the box in one turn, whereas a 1300 gold bonus later in the game maybe "only" fills, say, half.

Caravans rule!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited November 18, 1999).]

	19-11-1999 08:07									#13
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There are several possible reasons you might not be getting larger trade bonuses. First of all the discovery of navigation and invention both reduce trade bonuses, and if no one's discovered these in the first 100 turns these penalties are applied anyway. The discovery of the railroad will also cause trade bonuses to be reduced, this time by 33%. The trick is to do as much trading as you can before these points, and also to keep your cities growing (in particular increasing the trade they get by working terrain, as that's what goes into the calculation). Freight units have a 50% higher trade bonus too. And the Superhighways will do wonders, not only because they increase the trade from any land square you work that already has trade, but also because of another bonus you get if both cities involved in the transaction have the Superhighways.

Also, supplying a commodity in demand makes a huge difference. If you build it, and noone demands it, save it till someone does or use it for a wonder.

If the AI or human city you are trading with doesn't have much trade (sometimes the AI's will avoid working a trade square like the plague) that will also mean less bonus.

But even if you only get 250 gold from a caravan it's still very worth while. Aside from the science bonus and continuing trade route, that's worth 62 shields in buying a wonder, 100 shields in buying units (most efficient for a wonder, buy a few rows of caravans you're working on for that wonder) or 125 shields towards city improvements. All for a mere 50 shields.

	19-11-1999 09:14									#14
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Trade routes also make excellent weapons. Nothing more amply covers an oncoming force than a train of caravans. Beware of stacked caravans, for they are in fact your demise.

	19-11-1999 18:27									#15
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Matthew said: "But even if you only get 250 gold from a caravan it's still very worth while. Aside from the science bonus and continuing trade route, that's worth 62 shields in buying a wonder, 100 shields in buying units (most efficient for a wonder, buy a few rows of caravans you're working on for that wonder) or 125 shields towards city improvements. All for a mere 50 shields."

I just want to be sure I understand this. Caravans don't provide shields directly -- you're just referring to the number of shields I can save by buying items with the gold, right?

	19-11-1999 19:13									#16
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Campo--you get bigger bonuses trading with a foreign city, and a bigger bonus for trading overseas.

It can be very useful to build a city on a nearby island, and home all caravans to your colossus city, then send them to this island. (This is during the trireme era, when it may not be practical toget to foreign civs.)

	19-11-1999 19:56									#17
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Yes, Campo, you've got it right.

The figures for the units only apply if you use incremental buying, however. That is, instead of buying, say, a settler outright, you generate a few shields towards a warrior, buy the warrior, change to horsemen, buy that and so on. It's cheeper than buying the unit you're really after outright.

Some consider this a cheat, but I'm all for it.

	22-11-1999 03:11									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

I like to build lots of wonders, and early on, I have more problem getting the shields to produce the wonders than getting the prerequisite techs. For the cost of a caravan, you can build a new city, and I think this is better to do early in the game. Early caravans are not that effective because the bonus and the continuing income is dependent on the trade of both cities, and that is small, early on. If I am trying to build a science city, I build the wonders first, I can always build trade routes later.

	22-11-1999 06:26									#19
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very early, yes, go for the settler. But once you have enough cities that the extra unhappiness starts to become a factor It can really pay off to build the caravan to get that extra bit of thech to get MC or JSB sooner or some cash to rush buy a couple of temples in new cities. A size 5 or 6 city early on, especially with a couple of trade specials, can produce a surprisingly large bonus before invention and navigation are discovered.

	23-11-1999 08:05									#20
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i have to agree with geofelt here.... i build alot of wonders too and i don't think i ever deliver a caravan for a trade route until well after AD. However I am a militaristic expansionist did I mention aggresive as well ... I do launch to AC in some games but often i just grind it out with large wars. However when i am AC bound... trade routes are important but not until later.... this is probably why i never come close to the record and why my bank stagnates in the middle game.

	25-11-1999 19:04									#21
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great insight
I love this site

	26-11-1999 16:56									#22
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To all Micromanagers and Trade Route Sceptics!