21-10-2000 14:30									#1
	CTP way too America-centric Support Apolyton

I understand that CTP is made by American people, but doesn't anyone think that America is over-represented?

Too many wonders are American and why is 'The Agency' (American) a wonder? The British MI6 was established hundreds of years ago so why isn't that a wonder?

Oh, and I think the description of 'Democracy' in the great library is incorrect. It makes it soundlike America invented Democracy. Ancient Greece used democracy thousands of years ago, and Iceland used democracy before America was even discovered by Europeans.

Oh and did it slip someones mind with the 'Emancipation act' that Britain had abolished slavery 50 YEARS or so beforehand?

Sorry to Americans, but the game focuses too heavily on your nation, especially in the modern era.

	21-10-2000 15:19									#2
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so god danm true

	21-10-2000 17:18									#3
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Sounds to me like someone is still a little bitter about the loss of the 'colonies' Of course the game is going to focus upon the accomplishments of the United States. Its a classic example of the "They Invented it, We perfected it.." way of thinking.

Perhaps Britan abolished Slavery years before The US, But we did it with *flair* (Its a joke... :Smirk

The point here is that if the game was created in your country instead of ours, it would reflect the acomplishments of your nation over that of the United States.

As for ctp1, I believe you are refering to the Virtual Democracy. That Government was tailored to appear like it was a creation of the 'States'. Hence the Staue of Liberty and The American Flag shown within the FMV sequence.

The actual 'Democracy' Goverment however, really had no implications that it was a US born creation.

On a parting note though, I think for CTP2 they should include a new goverment. "Representative Republic". As that is what the United States Goverment really is, Not a Democracy.. (Although we are quickly becomming a Corporate Republic.. ).

Just My thoughts, I could be wrong..

	21-10-2000 17:47									#4
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In a game that is supposed to represent civilization throughout the ages, it should not be focused so heavily on the nation that made it.

I was not implying that there should be more British wonders and elements (I think Britain was overrepresented in Civ2 in terms of wonders) I think there should be more worldwide achievenments.

THE FACT THAT EVERY MODERN WONDER IS AMERICAN IS SURELY A HUGE INNACCURACY.

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour".

	21-10-2000 20:13									#6
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The icon for the democracy is the statue of Liberty, same as Virtual Democracy.

The futuristic wonders are far too America-centric.

I have no problem with the modern wonders. Of the modern wonders, 1 was invented by a Brit (Internet) and 1 is a joint American and British effort (Genome Project). It is fairly diffficult to name a set of Modern wonders that are not America-centric or British-centric. As they are the leading powers of the time. The only 'foreign' wanders worthery of mention are - Olympic Games, Suez Canal (a french-British joint venture) and possibly the Eiffel Tower.

BTW, I am British.

	21-10-2000 22:27									#7
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I felt the same way. Too many "American Wonders" in most Civs game. Hard to believe that someone in the Civ3 forums is trying to make West Point a wonder also.

	21-10-2000 22:44									#8
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I've been a li'l dissatisfied with the Ctp wonders myself, in no small part because not one of the "seven ancient wonders of the world" are included - prob'ly because of copyright, since Civ1 & 2 had 'em first.

And I also agree it's a bit US-centric.

	22-10-2000 04:12									#9
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For those of you who want to see different Wonders in the game- suggest some!
Those of us who put together the new wonders for the Med mod made a concerted effort to include a worldwide representation of them, and found many up through the 19th century. In the 20th, however, it's been the US who has produced most of the great projects, just like the leading nations of the past did during their time on top (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, French, and English).

	22-10-2000 04:18									#10
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But our favourite team is ManU. We're not all bad, are we?

	22-10-2000 06:08									#11
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..Hmm.. Now I'm going to have in reinstall the game to check, but I still do not believe that Democracy was represented as an "American" invention.

Virtual Democracy was.. :P

I will check it out, if I am wrong I will correct my former statement.

A few points though. If anyone posting on this topic could Post the wonders you thought were a little 'too american' :P I would like to hear them. I cannot remember all of the wonders but from what I can recall, the Emancipation Act, Hollywood And the Agency were all protraied as being American in orgin.

I don't mean to cause arguments for no reason and I do agree with you all, it would be nice for the game to be more balanced.

Chaing

	22-10-2000 14:14									#13
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In the great library section, only America is mentioned under 'democracy'. I just feel it would be nice for it to have mentioned where it actually originated, etc.

I think that the INTERNET is American and the WEB is a British innovation. (I could be wrong).

I agree that the US has done a lot of the modern wonders today but a couple of others could be Karl Marx's teachings (more Ind. Rev. I know but there isn't an 'industrial rev. era' in the unmodified CTP) and the channel tunnel (due to the fact that it is a great technological feat).

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

	22-10-2000 19:28									#14
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Hello,

Red_Jon, I like you!

As you can see, I am Dutch and the Dutch have their prides. One of these prides (the VOC, or East Indies Company, although some reject it, since force was sometimes used excessively)
This was a wonder (and a good one!).

However, there are more Dutch prides:
CIVIL ENGINEERING PROJECTS
(I admit, I am a student in Civil Engineering)
The Delta-project is one of the modern wonders of the world, espescially the "Stormvloedkering" (a dam that can be closed during storms, but which is open in normal situation.)

There can be some good reasons to allow this wonder, however, like in CIV2, only the Hoover Dam (even when civ 2 was released, there are bigger dams in the world)
the most wonders were American.

Some good wonders would be:
The Channel tunnel
The Delta Project
(Re)claiming of Flevoland (a Dutch province, gained from the sea)

The Apollo Project
International Space Station (to build WITH another CIV
or, Mir if you do not want to co-operate)
the Panama Canal (or Suez Canal)
Olympic games

I am thinking on more wonders.

Critics please!

Bye,

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1

	22-10-2000 23:32									#15
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See Activision, we can come up with lots of non-US wonders.

(granted they're mostly from Europe)

How about some modern Japanese wonders (they seem to have made a lot of technological advances)?

Ancients wonders should be centered towards Greece, Rome and Egypt, etc., Rennaisance from Europe and China and modern from the US, Europe, Japan and Russia.

OH, and ChaingKaiShek, I wouldn't call a very bloody civil war 'flair'.

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

	22-10-2000 23:46									#16
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Right, Great Wall, Grant Canel, Shi Huang Di's Tumb.from China,
and Sony Corporation from Japan. If you don't like that, let's make The Holy Wind a wonder.

	23-10-2000 03:30									#17
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Why not replace the proposed Channel Tunnel wonder with the Hokkaido Tunnel - I believe it is longer and older. (Don't know anything about it - just read that somewhere).

And while we're at it - as possible wonders why not the:

Taj Mahal
Sydney Opera House (or Harbour Bridge) (or both)
Eiffel Tower
United Nations (OK, another Anglo-American Invention)
The Bourse or "Stock Market" (not the London Exchange - Stock Markets are another Dutch idea)


and for the future:
Amazon Forest Reservation
Polar Ice Cap Stablisation
Martian Landings

But if you really want something Japanese, my vote would have to go to the musical golf club (joke)

	23-10-2000 03:33									#18
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St Swithin - Supporting Manchester United from anywhere outside Manchester should be a capital offence!
[This message has been edited by Chris Horscroft (edited October 22, 2000).]

	23-10-2000 04:22									#19
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I can't speak about CTP (I already mentioned I never played it) but CIV too gained the same "way too american" label.

I never understanded why Apollo project was the space wonder, when was USSR Sputnik the first satellite, and USSR Gagarin the firs cosmonaut.

USA won the race to the Moon, mostly because it was the race they set to run.

They had better scientific program at the time (X-15 planes and X-20 lifting body research - years before the Shuttle - and a permanent space station), but they discarded them just to win the Apollo race, with a lot less scientific advances at a greater expense.

Really a bit less than a wonder, by another point of view

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	23-10-2000 10:48									#20
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I agree with sentiment in the title.

Most of us from the English-speaking world would have trouble with this. Our view of the world is so skewed by American thinking which dominates popular culture.

There were quite a number of good suggestions for non-American wonders at the civ3 forum.

	23-10-2000 13:46									#21
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I dont wonder anymore, most things that came from the USA are Americanized! Computergames dont make an exception here.
Okay Sudden Strike is an exception. It is developed by russian developers and I believe thats exact the reason why russians are so strong in multiplayer

Nevertheless, a better representation of WoWs (Wonder of the World) would be great!
At least the US is not the world, though some do believe that

Ata

	23-10-2000 14:37									#22
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They should also put some latin american wonders too.
like in anncient times the "el Castillo" or "tikal". in the R. they should put "teotihuacan" (site of the biggest pyramid in the world), for modern times they should put something like "Rio d' janeiro" that giives caravns more money(turists) or cancun (fyi: mexico is the country with more turists/population, 2nd place is korea, why korea?)

	23-10-2000 15:05									#23
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Japanese wonder - Bullet Train (gives some sort of movement bonus).

Spanish wonder - Gaudi's Cathedral (happiness?)

	23-10-2000 15:36									#24
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Red_Jon: I'm curious as to who you say "invented" democracy? Are you counting the Republics of Athens and early Rome as democracies? They had no set protections of individual rights, and, of course, voting was restricted to a select few.

Are you proposing the Brittish or other parliments of colonial-era europe as the inventors? The Magna Carta guarenteed rights, but, as Americans (and other colonials) were so fond of pointing out, they were not represented in parliment.

Or we could pick groups like the Iroquois (Native American) League, whose form of represenative-democracy was based on compromise over majority rule.

There are also more recent democracies, any of which added improvements to the model.

IMHO, there was no "inventor" of democracy, rather it evolved over time through many different forms.

As for CTP being overly American, that's easily fixed: change the names!

-KhanMan

	24-10-2000 00:25									#26
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How about the University of Paris.

I thought this was the first university in the world (excuse me if I'm wrong)

It could become obsolete, after computer has been invented.

ADM.Naismith: I mentioned the Mir project and the ISS. These are projects in which the US has no or minor scientific experience.
The Apollo project was THE objective in the space-race. Not just the first man or satellite, although you are COMPLETELY right with your point. And the Apollo project would make a better wonder, certainly with the race to it. The invention is spaceflight (Soviets were the first tto discover) and the Americans to first complete the wonder.

Sorry, but on this point, I prefer the Lunar landings.

I like the bullet train idea, but was the bullet train the first highspeed train (on a seperate railroad)? Or was it the TGV in France. It should get obsolete with the invention of the superconductor. (Maglevs)

The International Court of Appeals (the war tribunal in The Hague, The Netherlands) could also make a good wonder, counting as a courthouse in every city (perhabs even throughout the world). Something like the Chichzen Itza in the Modern age. No obsolence.

Critics again, please

Bye,

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1

	24-10-2000 00:28									#27
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hello again,

I have forgotten something...

The University of Paris (or if another city had the first university, that city) and an implimentation:
Universities in all of your cities.

Bye,

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1

	24-10-2000 02:42									#28
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I can't help my good history knowledge. The first University in the world that is still up and going is in Fes, Morocco. I can't help myself.

	24-10-2000 07:49									#29
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I agree that all versions of Civilization, including CTP 1, are too Americanized. However, I'd like to point out that the "Statue of Liberty" wonder from Civ2 was designed by Gustave Eiffel (Eiffel Tower) and built by the French people as a gift to the United States. Perhaps the game isn't as Americanized as we thought....

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The Electronic Hobbit

	24-10-2000 08:13									#30
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I have to admit that CTP seems too americanized although anglicized may be better. Between Britain and the U.S. they have the majority of wonders. I would like to see a return to all of the Wonders of the World in the ancient world. One does have to recognize that the designers are American and the modern wonders have had a large American influence.

I like the bullet train, UN, olympics, international space station, geneva convention, and sydney opera house as non-US wonders.

Instead of a wonder like contraception to add to happiness what about of a civil rights type wonder. Could apply to many countries where minority groups have experienced increased rights and improved treatment (U.S., South Africa, Australia, creation of Israel, etc.)

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur