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Daniel Frappier
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Jan 1970
time: 05:14
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Good Idea, but it would not really qualify as a feat of Wonder, would it ?
It's more like in Civ II when the first player to discover Philosophy had a free advance. A feat of Wonder is when somebody DOES something, being the first player to go around the world is a good example but in this case it's only a bonus associated with the tech.
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I think it's a good idea in theory, but 25 turns? That's a long time.
How about having an advantage until somebody else also acquires Gunpowder?
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Daniel Frappier
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Jan 1970
time: 05:14
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I always wanted something similar for the discovery of Iron. It had a conparable impact in history as gunpowder but was never that important in Civ II or CTP I.
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Chris Horscroft
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Canberra, Australia
Sep 2000
time: 05:14
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I'd say discovery of gunpowder (or at least, its use in fire-arms) was more significant than circumnavigating the globe. Firearms would have to have been the main factor in allowing Europeans to dominate the Americas, India and China where long establiushed civilisations were overthrown in the space of only a few decades, and usually by small groups of adventurers/colonists.
It really is a balance issue how much advantage to give to the discoverer. I'd say they should get 25 turns or until another civ gets it, whichever comes first.
But perhaps as soon as a firearms equipped unit is defeated in any battle by a civ without firearms, the battle-winner should be given firearms automatically - that would force some caution on the part of the more advanced nation! (Don't think it would really work, but nice to think about)
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Diodorus Sicilus
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Steilacoom, WA, USA
May 1999
time: 05:14
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Any civilization without gunpowder is EXTREMELY disadvantaged against any civilization that has it. Merely being in contact with gunpowder doesn't mean you can get it automatically. The American Indians were in contact with Gunpowder Civilizations for almost 400 years (1500 to 1900, approx) and no Native group ever developed the ability to manufacture their own small arms or ammunition. Both the Indians (American) and the Zulus defeated gunpwoder-equipped forces (Little Big Horn, Rosebud, Ishandhlwanna) and none of the victories gave them the ability to effectively use the firearms they captured. So, getting gunpowder first should give you an advantage against everybody, which seems to be the gist of the Feat of Wonder cited in the screenshot, but in addition any non-gunpowder force should get a minus modifiers to the combat calculations against a gunpowder-armed force.
The same isn't true of the discovery of Iron. Iron working was known as far back as the time of Homer, but Homer calls it "the common (base) metal" because while it was used for tools and implements, bronze was still used for weapons and armor. Reason? Unless you have good quality control, too much smelted iron will be either brittle enough to shatter, or too soft. It took a long time for the techniques of working iron to be constant enough to completely supplement bronze - even late Roman Empire armor (1500 years after iron was first used!) included bronze or brass pieces. The real immediate effect of Iron Working is to make metal tools and equipment available to a much wider selection of the civilization, because iron ore is much more widely spread than the tin and copper that comprise bronze: once you know how to work it, iron is much cheaper than bronze or brass...
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Chris Horscroft
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Canberra, Australia
Sep 2000
time: 05:14
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Thanks Diodorus, I'd forgotten about the Zulu defeats.
OK, I withdraw the idea about giving conquerors of firearm-equipped forces gunpowder! I only proposed it as a balance issue.
Nikolai, your point is correct, and I agree with it, and that is why my original post said that it was firearms that gave the advantage to the Europeans. (I also said that it was the use of gunpowder in firearms that was more important than circumnavigating the globe).
Unfortunately, CTP gives you musketeers when you get 'gunpowder'. The advance should be called 'firearms'. Otherwise, it sounds like the feat of wonder, and its effect, is about right
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samurai
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Kristiansand,Vest-Agder,Norway
Sep 2000
time: 05:14
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At first I thought the idea was great, but now I don`t know.One of the greatest things about civilization is that everyone finds their own way.Someone likes it scientificly, others productively and others like fighting.If this feats of wonder makes it better to go one way instead of the other, then I don`t like it
Thats what I like about the discovering feats of wonder. It doesn`t give advantages for your way of "civ life" like an advantage with gunpowder would make for the ones who like to fight.
The solution to this would be to have a lot of these feats of wonder. Lets say that in CtP gunpowder and Age of Reason gave different advantages.Two sciences it took about the same time to discover, but not the same sciences you needed to get either gunpowder or Age of reason.
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27-10-2000 23:34
), but could someone from Activision give me some hints of what theese cheats will do (other than this)? PLEASE!!
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