17-10-2000 22:02									#31
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Stratesford

Hi. I wasn't trying to forget the Mayan, Aztecs, or Incas. I though they had been assimilate by Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru. Question, how many pure blood Mayan, Aztecs, Incas survive today.

Last night on the History Channel, they had the story of the Norwegian who sail the raft Kok Tike from Peru to French Polynesia in 1948 to prove that Indians from Peru could have made it a few thousand years ago (the Statues of Easter Island. The Polynesia did get there until the 5th Century. The statues are much older), then he later (1962) went Africa and sail a reed boat from Tunisia to Barbados to prove that maybe the Egyptian came to Mexico a few thousand years ago. As you know there are some similarity between the Pyramids of Egypt and Mexico. Do we know what the early Egyptian look like? The Arabs overran Egypt in the Seven or Eighth Century.

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[This message has been edited by Joseph (edited October 17, 2000).]

	18-10-2000 10:17									#32
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According to the census of 1990 there are about 5 million mayans in mexico alone and 500,000 nahuatls(aztecs)

I don't think the aztecs or mayans got their ideas from the egyptians. The angle of an aztec pyramid is usually 34 degrees and plus the aztecs built their monuments for one reason and the mayans for another an the egyptians for another. There is proof though that the egyptians had some contact with america since tabbaco,weed,cocoa and peyote(those egyptians were drugees!) have been found at the burial sites

	19-10-2000 04:48									#33
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The easiest way to deal with most of these issues is to allow the player to choose which computer civilisations he will compete against. Then anyone who doesn't like particular country names appearing in the civilisation list can live happily ever after.

Like the ancient and modern names idea, and suggest that the player be able to select when a change civ name prompt will come up. At change of government type, at conquest of enemy civilisation, at change of era. Any others?

	19-10-2000 10:33									#34
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Choosing your adversaries is definitely needed. I may have an interest for a particular region of the world and fighting against neighbours makes much more sence. I also do not like Cubans, but not because of drugs. I play Indian, and it looks weird for ancient Indians to fight against Cubans and Nicaraguans. I want to beat Persians, Chinese, Mongolians etc.

	24-10-2000 05:34									#35
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They better not puck up the Canadians again!

Get the cities right!!
god dammit


OR we will throw the beer bottles at ya!!

EH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	24-10-2000 08:27									#36
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I would definitely like to see the option to pick your opponents. This would allow for those of us looking for historical accuracy to pick logical countries. At the same time CTP is not just about recreating history, but considering scenarios in which two civilizations that never would have appeared in real life actually met. If I'm not mistaken it is possible to change the names of the civilizations in the code. I'm not experienced enough to try it myself, but I thought that the ability to do that was there. If that's correct you can change it yourself.

That being said it would be great if every country and civilization could be included but imagine it would get out of control and would be cumbersome (that's a lot of cities to establish for each civ).

As long as the Irish are there, I'm happy.

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

	24-10-2000 14:01									#37
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Same for me with the Dutch. We earn a place in a CIV game.

Espescially in an exploration scenario, together with the English, Portugese, French, Spanish, Italians and all the inland civs, who were wiped out by the people mentioned above.

Bye,

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1

	24-10-2000 14:09									#38
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Oh yeah, Fred,

You didn't like the names of the Canadian cities: Same for me with the Dutch (sorry, I forgot this point).

the cities: Amsterdam, The Hague, Arnhem, Leeuwarden, Assen, Groningen etc.

All these cities are capitals of a province, except Amsterdam. But the sequence is wrong. Rotterdam should be third, Utrecht fourth, Eindhoven fifth, Groningen sixth.
However, Rotterdam, Utrecht and Eindhoven are coming up as fifteenth and so on.

Leiden comes after Leiderdorp, which is pathetic. Leiden and the missing city Delft are historic and therefor they should be in the game and NOT Ede (a very minor town, more like a village) and Breukelen (same for Ede, but then for the Dutch celeberties and other rich people)

So, programmers: A suggestion. If you would put many civs in a game (good, continue with that!) ask people on the forum WHICH citties it should have and in which sequence.

	24-10-2000 18:49									#39
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I would like to repeat that I mostly play my country. It would be nice if you could add/remove civs just by clicking such an option in the game, then you would be able to create any civ, even the Martians.

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	24-10-2000 23:50									#40
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Solver,

EXCELLENT IDEA!!!!
I would love such an option, it would solve (how did you get that name? ) the debate on this forum!!!

Again: WOW!!!

Bye,

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1

	25-10-2000 02:53									#41
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I love historical accuracy. In fact this chain of letters is an excellent example of why we hairless apes are busy trying to wipe each other off the face of the earth.
If you want to play only a civilization with continuity, then we all play the Chinese. EVERY other civilization has had it's ups and downs, been charged with new blood, collapsed, been reborn under another name etc.
Keep in mind this is a GAME!


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The secret to life is-
there isn't any.
[This message has been edited by Old Bear (edited October 24, 2000).]

	25-10-2000 03:56									#42
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Chinese civilisation has had its ups and downs too, you know.

Agree totally with Bartemans that this forum could be used to establish which cities to put on the list for each country. I hardly play the Australian civ because of the ridiculous city ordering and list (I've never heard of some of them, and live here!). The list of English cities I find difficult to justify as well, and I can't imagine that "Head Smashed In" is a real place - even in Canada!

So, NOTE FOR ACTIVISION. Please ask people what cities should be included for country-based civs. Bartemans - do you have a preferred complete list of Dutch cities? If you want to post one, I'll replace my city file to follow it... Anyone else want to contribute?

	25-10-2000 07:53									#43
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Obviously for ease of use it would be great for Activision to do things exactly as we would like. It isn't that difficult to change the city names to those that we would like, so I would rather Activision get the bugs out of the game rather than work on getting accurate city lists.

I know in CivII, you could go into the code rather easily and change the city names, I don't know if you could in CTP, but it would be nice if it was possible in CTP II.



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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

	25-10-2000 13:17									#44
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Yes, Paulypav, changing city names in the code is possible in CtP(II) as well, it's fairly easy in CtPI and I don't think it will be more complicated in CtPII.
In fact, I once made a (IMHO) proper list of Dutch city names (though I'm sure Bartemans, or any other Dutch guy for that matter, would have some comments about it), Nordicus even used it for one of his gigantic world maps (though that was unfortunately never released in public). If I can find it back, I could post it somewhere, though I doubt Activision really cares about such details, making the game bug-free is probably a much higher priority (and rightly so).

	25-10-2000 14:29									#45
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Chris Horscroft and all the others:

My preferred Dutch city list

1. Amsterdam
2. Rotterdam
3. Den Haag (The Hague)
4. Utrecht
5. Eindhoven
6. Groningen
7. Arnhem
8. Middelburg
9. Maastricht
10. Haarlem
11. Den Bosch
12. Zwolle
13. Leeuwarden
14. Assen
15. Lelystad
16. Enschede
17. Nijmegen
18. Leiden
19. Delft
20. Tilburg
21. Wageningen
22. Roermond
23. Venlo
24. Almere
25. Deventer
26. Kampen
27. Zutphen
28. Vlissingen
29. Apeldoorn
30. Alkmaar
31. Den Helder
32. Breda
33. Dordrecht
34. Hoorn
35. Enkhuizen


Based on: First the nation’s capital and the six largest cities. Then all the capital of the twelve provinces (except Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Eindhoven), all cities until 15 are provincial capitals.

Then other big cities (Dutch standards, of course), cities of historical importance and cities with universities. Cities like Deventer and Kampen are so called "Hanze" cities, which means they became rich by trading and trading posts (important roads went along these cities)

The sequence may not be too accurate, but I’ll work it out.

The last cities in the row come from a road-atlas, so it's not A-OK, but CERTAINLY LOTS!!!! better then the list in CTPI!

Bye,

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1

	25-10-2000 16:20									#46
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danm perfectionists, who cares about the dutch in Santa Monica any ways?

be happy with what you have


...not!

	25-10-2000 16:44									#47
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Who cares about Santa Monica OUTSIDE the USA?

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1

	25-10-2000 23:04									#48
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Thanks Locutus, I'll have to figure out how to do that since I imagine there will be some city lists that I might want to amend.

------------------
"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

	26-10-2000 02:42									#49
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'Head Bashed In' is an English city name?
Are you sure?

They should include a 'British' civ instead of or as well as 'English', 'Scottish' and 'Welsh'.

These 3 countries do not exist any more. Scotland, England and Wales are all parts of Britian, not their own countries.

Plus, in CTP different countries should be able to have the same head of state (queen Elizabeth II is queen of Britian and Australia, for example). This could create greater trade/ military links between the countries.



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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

	26-10-2000 07:30									#50
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Thanks Bartemans - I have updated my list to follow yours. Here's my preferred Australian List. Edmund Barton is the nation's first Prime Minister. Caroline Chisholm used to be on our five dollar note, and although she wasn't a politician, I think she is a better choice than Carmen Lawrence. (But neither really bothers me).

The cities list has the national capital first, then the state and territory capitals in rough order of development (trying to balance growth and history is not always easy!). After Darwin you get into the regional centres, which again I've tried to get in rough order of development. I've tried to balance them according to location too. Anyone with a better knowledge of Aussie history is welcome to improve the list!

Note for red_jon. 'Head Bashed In' appears as a Canadian, not an English city (I didn't intend to imply that it was English). Scotland at least is a separate country, with its own legal (and now) political institutions, whilst still being part of the UK. Given the distinct histories up until the Act of Union in the eighteen century, it is certainly worth a place on its own. Queen Elisabeth 2 lists as the female leader for Jamaica, but I do not think it appropriate to use her as the female leader in CTP/CTPII for Canada or Australia, although you are correct that she is the Head of State in both countries. There are and have been in both countries female politicians and celebrities with a greater national impact. (Just as in Britain I'd suggest that Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill have been more "important" as leaders than QE2 and King George VI respectively!)


AUSTRALIAN_LEADERM_NAME "Edmund Barton"
AUSTRALIAN_LEADERF_NAME "Caroline Chisholm"
AUSTRALIAN_COUNTRY_NAME "Australia"
AUSTRALIAN_SINGULAR "Australian"
AUSTRALIAN_PLURAL "Australians"

AUSTRALIAN_CITY_1 "Canberra"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_2 "Sydney"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_3 "Hobart"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_4 "Melbourne"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_5 "Brisbane"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_6 "Perth"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_7 "Adelaide"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_8 "Darwin"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_9 "Launceston"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_10 "Newcastle"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_11 "Wollongong"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_12 "Parramatta"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_13 "Bendigo"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_14 "Ballarat"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_15 "Albany"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_16 "Geelong"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_17 "Broken Hill"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_18 "Albury"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_19 "Cairns"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_20 "Townsville"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_21 "Toowoomba"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_22 "Rockhampton"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_23 "Dubbo"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_24 "Wodonga"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_25 "Fremantle"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_26 "Alice Springs"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_27 "Goulburn"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_28 "Armidale"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_29 "Broome"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_30 "Whyalla"
[This message has been edited by Chris Horscroft (edited October 25, 2000).]

	26-10-2000 07:46									#51
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While a bug-free game with a poor city list is easier to live with than a badly coded game with great historical accuracy, given that there's a whole forum out here able to suggest national lists, it would be nice to think that the Activision guys can simply take advantage of our existence and use our city lists while they get on with the coding.

I know my Australian city list (last posting on previous page) isn't perfect, but I believe that it is far better than the one that was shipped!

[This message has been edited by Chris Horscroft (edited October 25, 2000).]

	26-10-2000 12:10									#52
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Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump, Alberta, Canada is a real place - a buffalo jump and a world heritage site. It's near my home town of Pincher Creek (so named because someone lost their pincers (pliers) in the creek and someone else found them years later)

I rather liked that a number of smaller town names were included in the Canadian list, and I don't remember seeing any that weren't real places. A couple were even from Alberta. I would like to add some of our other interesting and historic place names as well - possibly:
Hairy Hill (a former buffalo hangout),
Amber Valley (an area settled by former slaves escaped from the U.S.),
Dogpound, the Hand Hills, Drumheller,
Medicine Hat (the town Kipling wrote had "all Hell for a basement" as it sits on a shallow natural gas field,
Nobleford (named after Charles Noble, the inventor of the Noble Plow - possible the most significant mechanical invention of the time),
Turtle Mountain (which fell on Frank, Alberta),
Fort Whoopup (now Lethbridge), Writing on Stone,
Pouce Coupe, Eaglesham, Tete Jaune Cache, Picture Butte, Crowsnest Pass, Kicking Horse Pass,
Spread Eagle (a school district I used to live in, Little Chicago (now Black Diamond), The County of Forty Mile, Vulcan (they actually sell Spock Ears at some of the local stores),
Coronation (named after King Edward's I believe - with street names tied to royalty),
Cypress Hills (where Sitting Bull's army came after wiping out Custer's 7th Cavalry and was met at the border and escorted to a reserve by one North West Mounted Police Constable Peach (I believe) as the local representative of law and order),
Moose Jaw, Moose Factory,
Pile of Bones (now Regina), etc.
And then there's Basta*d County Ontario - and we can't forget Batoche, either as historically significant.
Of course Newfoundland has the greatest place names, and I won't even get into them here.

	27-10-2000 02:56									#53
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I stand corrected! Sounds like the designers could have picked even "worse" names than "Head Smashed In" for the Canadians! Thanks

	30-10-2000 13:02									#54
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No problem. Actually I kinda like the Strayne names too, eh??

	30-10-2000 21:07									#55
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A major issue that you all completely ignore is the way national groups break apart, and regain independence after being conquered.

I don't care what they call the civs, but I want my national group to survive and cause trouble for a conqueror, perhaps ultimately regaining independance.

I think it sends the wrong message that a civilization has totally lost when conquered, because conquest of a national group is rarely permanent unless its accompanied by assimilation or genocide.

In fact this is the rule not the exception. Most major civs have been defeated in war and even completely conquered, only to rise again.

I'd be inclined to say that the development of Nationalism would make it a lot more difficult for coutries to manage minority populations, without taking extraordinary measures, either positive or negative, to contain the problem.

All civs who conquer enemy cities should be able to choose any number of options, including:

1. Starve the city (genocide) or enslave it

2. Forced emigration

3. Repatriate city to its motherland

4. Set up an independant nation

5. Encourage assimilation through tolerance (the jury is still out whether this will work here in US).

The approach taken might depend on any number of things such as goverment type for the conqueror. I envision in the modern era that the trend would be toward resurrecting nations as part of peace negotiations.

I also think it would take a country with a great economy, or a very repressive one, to maintain order in a multi-ethnic society. Witness the fracturing of the former USSR when communism fell, and race riots/hate crimes in the US.

I would also love to have a certain limitted control of my peoples in conquered cities. It would be fun to have some of my people emigrate to foreign cities and possibly act as spies, with all those spy options! If I played the Chinese, I could send people to the US to get all their nuclear secrets under a "Democracy" (Clintons or Gore) but not a "Republic" (Reagan or Bushes). :P Or if I played the Mexicans, I could send a lot of people to the border areas of the US and after a couple generations have them demand to be repatriated to Mexico! [Try as they may, don't bet on it ever succeeding.]

The "melting pot" leads to harmony among all peoples, but multiculturalism leads to ethnic tension.

	31-10-2000 03:35									#56
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Hey Proy,

Thanks for the manifesto. Thing is, you posted the same message on another thread a few days ago - I for one was ignoring it on the grounds of irrelevance to this discussion. Maybe in future you could simply refer to your original posting - or are you intending to place copies on every thread?


[This message has been edited by Chris Horscroft (edited October 30, 2000).]

	31-10-2000 04:25									#57
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I actually think that the idea of having your civilization die permanently after the loss of your last city seems a little unfair as well. How about this idea: After your last city is lost any units that you have in the field start to lose hit points (like the helicopter in Civ2). When they lose all of their hit points, they disappear. When your last unit is gone then your civilization is finally gone. How does that sound?

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The Electronic Hobbit

	31-10-2000 11:32									#58
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Sounds fine to me, Meriadoc

	02-11-2000 04:52									#59
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IMHO, I hope that CTP2 allows us to use the beautifully simple option of customizing a civilization's labels. I love the option in Civ2 whereby I can pick a civ, then type into the fields my pseudonym (leader's name, usually Sequoyah), the name of my Civ ( such as Cherokee Nation), and the adjective with which they will be addressed (logically, Cherokee.) Civ2 even allows you to type in your custom civilization's titles for each government type. ( I chose for the Cherokees titles like Shaman for Fundamentalism and Sachem for Despotism). I'm no expert on Cherokee history, but it fueled my imagination enough to make the game immensely enjoyable even though the graphics were a few generations old.
Ata, God bless you and keep you. You're right in that if someone wants to play the Cubans, they should have that option. Hence my love for Civ2's customizability. If there is any virtue in America, or in any free nation, it is genuine tolerance for others' freedom to express their opinions and tolerance for others' freedom to choose for themselves.
And now I wish to ask a quick, selfish question. Our little ranks that appear next to our names in these posts. (Settler, Chieftain, etc.) Is that based on how long we've been registered, or how many posts we've made,..... or on paying the right Apolyton power-broker? I'm confused (sounding like the tall asparagus in Veggie Tales that my kids watch).