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jbs
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Activision is coming out with CTP2 and want and expects us to spend our hard earned money to buy the game. Many positive things were released that had me waiting in anticipation and then the negatives started rolling in.
No more than 8 Civs
No Hotseat
No PBEM
No Canals
Rumors of a lot of bugs with no time left before the release date to fix.
Now it is quite obvious to me that Activision did not listen to the Civ community. How many times even with the original CTP was more than 8 Civs requested. The CTP patch included hotseat and yet they don't even have something as basic as that in the initial game. If the basic things like hotseat and more than 8 Civs don't work, what does that tell you about the quality of the game. It tells me that Activision knows the game has bugs and is trying to hid them. More than 8 Civs will stress the game, having HOTSEAT stressed the game. The fact that they are not present means that the game does not work when stressed. Why? If I were a betting man, I would say that they were initially incluced, but had bugs. So instead of fixing the bugs, they just dropped the features. That means the bugs are still there, they just don't show up as often so Activision hopes they can sneak it past us poor dumb consumers.
What separates a great game from a mediocre game? I believe it is in the attention to detail and the simply things. All the great games and the medocre games have great potential. However, the great games pay attention to the simply things and not just the big areas like diplomacy. So what if CTP2 has a great diplomacy if the simple things that make a great game are missing or broken. Should I buy CTP2 just because it has a great diplomacy. IMO, that is a bug fix and should be given away free or at most a $20 add-on to CTP1. I would pay $20 for a better diplomacy add-on for CTP1, but I will not pay $50 for another CTP1 with great diplomacy. Yes the reviews all sound great and the great new features have us all salvitating at the bit that we can't wait to buy the game bugs or no bugs. Remember the hype before CTP1. How we all couldn't wait. How all the new special units and the graphics and the other great features were going make this the best Civ game ever. Then remeber how disappointed and frustrated and made when the simply things didn't work. How we all swore on our Mother's grave that we wouldn't buy another broken game from Activision. That we wouldn't be played for suckers again. Now the cycle begins again. Great new features, going to be the best Civ game ever. I can not wait to buy this game who cares about a few bugs. Then the rumors that simply things like more than 8 Civs don't work, no canals, no hotseat no PBEM. Some rumors of bugs that of course Activision denies. Than the Christmas release date that the bean counters want so bad. Again the decision makers at Activision say to the developers. Yes we understand the game isn't ready and it has problems, but we have to make the Christmas relase date. The public are suckers they will buy the game problems or no problems so why should be expend the extra effort and delay the Christmas release date to actually put out a quality product. People will buy the game low quality or not and we get our money and that's all we care about. And besides we can always fix it with a patch. Well I will NOT be a sucker again. I will not buy the game with bugs. I will not buy the game with no Hotseat. I will not buy the game without the ability to play more than 8 Civs. I am still content with playing CTP with the various mods, and am still working on my own. I have no incentive to buy another game from Activision that has great potential but is broken. Good luck to whomever decides to actually buy the released game. May the Civ gaming force be with you and may your frustration and disappointment level be low.
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samurai
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Kristiansand,Vest-Agder,Norway
Sep 2000
time: 05:14
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To anyone writing letters so long as jbs. Please try to cut them down or make them look more interesting.
Get uninterested just looking at them
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Dida
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I was very disappointed to know that there is no canals in the game.
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lev
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Beaverton, OR, USA
May 1999
time: 05:14
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> No more than 8 Civs
Never played with more than that, nor wanted to.
> No Hotseat
Would be nice, but I never used that, either.
> No PBEM
Same as above
> No Canals
For me, the one-square city-as-canal has always seemed enough.
> Rumors of a lot of bugs with no time left
> before the release date to fix.
Unfortunately, this is pretty standard for game software. It has such a shorter shelf-life than other kinds of software, that there is great pressure to keep it moving.
In all, my impression is that Activision is releasing a game with a lot of features people asked for, but without some features that a few people wanted.
Sounds good enough to me!
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Tical_2000
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To correct my ignorant friend above,
SOME people did not want more than 8 civs. SOME people did not want canals. SOME people did not want multiplayer support. The fact is that over 1000 posts were made on this very site requesting/discussing that these changes be made in CTP2. So don't ever speak for the majority again unless you have your facts straight.
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Mark or Dan, can you or would comment on the "over 1000 post for MP, canals, ect. Was it over 1000 different people or a few hundred re-posting it over and over.
The canals would be nice but are not a big deal to me.
I do not play MP, and I have no interest in playing MP., But I hope they will make an MP patch for the player who want it.
With the much larger cities I believe that more than 8 to 12 civs, everthing is going to be crowded very fast unless we have some very large maps. In CTP the cities were only two tile from city center. In CTP 2 they will be four tiles from city center. Again in CTP city center to city center five tiles. In No. 2 nine tiles. North to south two cities in CTP ten tiles. No.2 eighteen tiles. Now if you don't mind an AI civs building a city three tiles from your city center no problem. I do mine.
I will buy the game as soon as it is release.
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[This message has been edited by joseph1944 (edited October 31, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by joseph1944 (edited October 31, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by joseph1944 (edited October 31, 2000).]
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Pyaray
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Santa Ana, CA, USA
Oct 2000
time: 21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by red_jon on 11-01-2000 02:16 PM
But what is the point in them not including it? They didn't in CTP1 and then released apatch including it- why do this with CTP2? Why not include hotseat in the first place?
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I have been avoiding this topic for a while now. But it seems to be something that's extremely important to some of you, so I guess I'll address it, but only a little bit.
The reason it was cut, and yes it was cut recently, was because of insurmountable bugs. There were a lot of really horrendous bugs that quite frankly we didn't know how to fix in the amount of time we have. We would rather ship a really solid good game than add more features that make it not solid, and buggy. So we have chosen to focus our energy on making what we are shipping as good as we possibly can, and anything we couldn't do "right" we didn't do at all. Will we be doing a patch for this game? I don't know. Would we like this feature in the game? Yes, we would. But frankly I don't know if it will happen or not. It was a difficult decision to make (I wasn't the one who made it, but everyone was involved to some degree), but the decision we made was what we thought was best for the game as a whole. Once again I'm sorry that this disappoints so many of you, but this is not a trivial spend an hour to implement it kind of feature. It is actually a very difficult to implement feature. I hope you all understand.
Pyaray
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Paulypav
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Shirley, NY, USA
Oct 2000
time: 05:14
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Thanks Pyaray, for once again giving us insight into the minds of Activision. I for one, would rather a solid game without PBEM and Hotseat, then to have PBEM and Hotseat and have it cause all kinds of problems. Apparently, this is a much more difficult to implement feature than many of us understand. We have all made the assumption that because it was done for CTP, albeit as a patch, that it could easily be done for CTPII. I'm sure those of us looking for Hotseat and PBEM will hope for a patch, if possible.
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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur
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Mike the Nuke
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Oakdale
Oct 2000
time: 05:14
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I agree with JB. I don't care if the majority or minority desires some of these features. Unfortunately, I do not know for sure what the abbreviation PBEM stands for. I probably never used it. I did play the CTP I game over the internet several times, but enjoyed the game MOST under the 'HOTSEAT' mode. In this mode, my wife (who never thought she would ever play a CIV game who then found out she enjoyued it thoroughly) and my kids (same deal) and myself played each other along with friends and some AI's on the same computer! It was the ONLY reason we kept playing the game. If CTP II will not have this function and/or it will not be patched in very soon after its release, then you can take this game and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. In response to the designer expert who states how tough it is to do these deals I, with all respect, say "ITS YOUR JOB, quit making excuses. I wish I could do it, but I don't know how. I operated Nuclear Power Plants aboard the USS Enterprise. It wasn't always easy, but we had to make it work, no excuses. The first CTP was a great game. It needed some improvements and some unit value corrections (everyone has their own opinions) but deleting options that existed in the first game from the second game because its 'too hard' is nothing but a poor excuse. I WILL NOT BUY THE GAME (CTP II) AT ANY PRICED UNTIL THESE OPTIONS ARE INCLUDED AND BUGS FIXED, ETC. I WILL NOT RECOMMEND THE GAME TO ANYONE, BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO RECEOMMEND CTP I TO ALL MY FRIENDS THAT ENJOY THESE CIV GAMES. WHAT A DISSAPPOINTMENT! WE'VE (MY FAMILY) BEEN COUNTING THE DAYS FOR THE ARRIVAL OF THE NEW AND IMPROVED CTP-II, NOW IT APPEARS TO BE NOTHING WORTH WAITING FOR.
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i'm sorry, are you saying that you wont buy ctp2 cause it doesnt have a feature that you dont know what it is and will never use it??
btw, pbem means "play by e-mail"
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Kautilya
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St Louis, MO
Feb 2000
time: 23:14
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Um Mark obviously you didn't read past the second line of Mike's post. He was talking about hotseat with which he plays CTP with his family.
I personally haven't played either on PBEM or hotseat. For me the biggest consideration is a strong AI for single player. However I have been told that PBEM is a good way to play multiplayer so that might be a consideration when considering future replay value. It appears that there are a lot of people for whom PBEM is very important so I think that Activision should announce early that a PBEM patch will be on the way if they don't want to lose too many sales.
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Dogberry
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Sydney, NSW, Australia
Jan 1970
time: 05:14
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I hope you all remember the suggestion lists that seemed to have been so painstakingly put together in this site and forwarded to Activision by this site, some of the suggestions had even appeared for the original CTP. What the hell does Activision do with them?! No PBEM, no hotseat, damn, NO WONDER, they are in CTP, why would people suggest it again?! I don't know about you, but multiplaying a civ game online realtime with friends is both time-consuming and a drag. PBEM is the way to go for me.
A 100 aussie dollar is a lot of money, I will definitely wait for the review this time around.
Cheers,
Dogberry.
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MadWoodster
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A wierd and mad place called Southampton
Jan 2000
time: 05:14
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If alot of people buy the game, then Activision may decide there is no point in releasing a patch as they won't get any more sales, however, if everyone who wants more features doesn't buy the game, then Activision may realise how much money they could make by releasing a patch to add the particular features.
Incidently I don't care about PBEM or Hotseat and just want a fully-working single player game.
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jbs
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I am senior software engineer, and I will be happy to send anyone my resume who does not believe that is my job. Just send me your e-mail address and I will send you a copy. I have written and released many applications and tools. The hardest part in fixing a bug is understanding what is causing it. I have been in the same position as Activision. I have an application that has a bug that I do not know what causes it. All I do know is that I only encounter that bug when I do X feature. So I remove that feature and release that tool. I have done this a few times to met a deadline. The application works fine for the initial data set, but once the customer starts stressing the tool with more data or repetitive use, that same unknown bug appears. That has happened to me every single time! If I have to release an application I always tell (I learned after my first experience) the customer what bug I could not correct so the customer is aware of potential problems and to report this immediately so I have additional data that I can use to correct the problem. If Activision knew exactly what was causing the bugs, then fixing them should not be hard. But if you are not sure, then deleting a feature does not guarantee that the bug is fixed and in my experience has never fixed it. Because if I was that sure of what was causing the bug I could fix it. So Activision deleting a feature doesn't fix a bug, it just makes it occur less often because you are removing stress from the program, but if the customer stresses it in some other way (lets say modification) then those bugs are likely to occur. And of course Activision will not support any modifications. So everyone who loves the modification feature has to worry about these unknown bugs.
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01-11-2000 10:28
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