14-11-2000 03:21									#1
	Based on what we know so far, what do you want to mod in CtP2 Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm awaiting my (Christmas present) copy eagerly... although the joy might be taken out of it by then.

I am intially looking to implement the limited Wonders concept, and maybe an ICS solution

I know theres already people talking about a legion (very minor, but it sounds sensible to me too)

Anyone else have any other concepts they think they might try out?

	14-11-2000 03:47									#2
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one of these days i'm changing the names of the diffculty levels back to normal...

	14-11-2000 04:02									#3
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Sugar plum fairies, sugar plum fairies.

	14-11-2000 08:17									#4
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Well I for one started a very extensive mod all from my annoyance of two things. If the tech tree posted is accurate they still appear to be there.

1. Muskets are miniature cannons. Cannons were the first weapon to project anything with the use of gunpowder. The posted tech tree still has that backwards.

2. The posted tech tree still appears to allow scientists to map the human genome without the need for computers.

Further to this I plan to change the Chaos Theory to String Theory... since Chaos Theory has little to do with GUT... if anything it's good for economic models... supply demand predator prey models.
Then there's Human Cloning... digital Encryption?
Hmmm... and I can't see the Republic...
And Ballistics without Geometry is cute.

*sigh* I'm not going to continue. Lets just say I think the tree could use some work.

On another note I use XL to fix a date (read turn) that I wish to discover the tech and the cost of it is calcuated based on its distance from the prereqs. Every since tech has its own cost. I imagine I'll do that once I determine a good curve for it to match.

I also cut all knowledge co-effs in half and generally quadrupled science outputs. Again spreadsheeting this stuff showed that CD's mod fixed the science problem but caused a gold problem. However from what I gather the science from gold improvements has been dealt with.

In my mod I currently have -1 hap on all wonders.
(meaning yes most of them are -ve... really cuts my wonder mania I'll tell ya... and well the AI does not do it anyway... thats why I did this).

And I imagine I'll implement my triggers too.
Bureaucracy Tax; Pop Migration; Refugees from captured cities; Terrorist strikes, but I'll have to test it out some before I do so.

Gedrin

	14-11-2000 09:27									#6
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i wonder if its posible to do a reverse colonisation?(ie everyone starts out under the sea, and has to migrate to the land)

	14-11-2000 18:45									#9
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Definitely the city graphics. I can't believe they didn't include new city styles. The first thing I'm going to do is load in Harlan's city graphics

	14-11-2000 19:28									#10
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Yo, peeps, where can I get some of these mods you are referring to? Are they compatible with CTP II, or do you not know yet? Also, how will that affect LAN multi-player? Would everyone playing have to have the same mods installed, or would it render the game unplayable for MP all together? I imagine that a changed city graphics modification wouldn't cause much in the way of multi-player issues, but an altered tech-tree certainly might.

So let me know where I can get and read about mods for CTP and CTP II.

	14-11-2000 20:19									#11
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Sure Wes, you bet I'll give 'em hell.

As for the Med mod instability. You know, I think you might have something about the number of techs. See PS below.

As for my mod. Well I've never made it available since I'm a perfectionist and way to lazy to fix up the GL . And then CTPII was looming so I figured 'whatever'.

I'll make it available for CTPII though. My spreadsheets analysis is so extensively cross-referanced out the wazzoo now that I expect it will take no time to dump all CTPII numbers in.

I'm also working on a Babylon 5 scenario. Got the tech tree made too. Anyone recall the B5 scenario for CivII? When I heard of the MOD function in SLIC my mind just raced with all the cool things that could be done.

Gedrin
(aka Chris)

P.S. technical feel free to ignore:
You recall me mentioning that you may not have one tech be the prereq for more than 4 others?

Not having seen the code and being of the understanding it is written in C++, I assume that there is an array to store the 'post-reqs' (new word? ) Anyway in true C++ "here's the rope now go hang yourself" style it likely does arbitrary pointer arithmetic to dereferance those elements and goes off the end of the array, crashing horribly.

The number of techs is also likely in an array and I'll bet is also dereferanced via pointer arithmetic... cause it's really FAST!!! However I would expect the number of techs to be available would be some fn 2^x
I'll bet that if you have only 128 techs that do NOT contain the flag NO_INDEX then your instabilities will end.

Oh and of some importance is my point. Betcha CTPII is similar in this regard.
Generally if a tech only 'leads to new advances' and has only 1 pre or post req then it should be absorbed into another tech. I opt for tree minimization as opposed to maximization.

Hehe when do we get a CTPII creation forum?
[This message has been edited by Gedrin (edited November 14, 2000).]

	14-11-2000 23:21									#12
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On the tech-chart Fascism is just a step after Theology, in the middle of the Renaissance, before nationalism and before Democracy. Historically fascism is an industrial age militaristic mass control born as a consequence of nationalism and in opposition of communism, as far as I know. Maybe gameplay reasons suggested to shift it backword some centuries. What about the Fascist unit? Has it been scaled down?
You will have Musketeers and Fascists in the same age..
2 questions:
what do you all guys think of this?
Is it possible to modify the tech tree to place it "properly", maybe with communism and nationalism as prerequisites?
I await your opinions.

	14-11-2000 23:39									#13
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Another issue:
analysing the tech-chart it seems to me that the ultimate air units are the stealth fighter and bomber:
isn't this a little strange? Top air warfare technology for three centuries? I know that there is no space anymore, but I would have appreciated some stratosferic interceptors or orbital bombers (maybe just as bigger brothers of the stealth couple).
Again, waiting for your ideas and mod suggestions.

	15-11-2000 01:11									#14
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Yoleus; Yep I looked at that with suspicion too. But judgement must be suspended until the gov's are analysis is done.

However... seems you can build battleships... without the need for combustion engines. Ok mateys... ROW!!!

	15-11-2000 01:31									#15
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INTERNAL combustion engines, battleships don't use internal combustion engines. They use to work with coal and then diesel or kerosone and then with nuke power

	15-11-2000 07:52									#16
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Funny, I can't think of any battleships that use nuclear power. And aren't diesel engines considered to be internal combustion engines?

------------------
The Electronic Hobbit

	15-11-2000 19:57									#17
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Hi Meriadoc,

"aren't diesel engines considered to be internal combustion engines?"

Depends on how you use them. In the case of really large ships like battleships fuel oil was used to heat a boiler that produced steam to turn the turbines that turned the propellers. Smaller ships like destoyers and submarines would use standard diesel engines, just on a larger scale.

You are probably correct though about nuclear powered battleships. I don't ever remember hearing of a nuclear powered battleship, unless the Soviets made one.

The battleships that the US used until a few years ago though, were left over from WW II. They were just very heavily modified over the intervening years. I believe all of them used fuel oil to heat boilers to produce steam to turn turbines as described above. If anyone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me and put the record straight.

Timothy Pintello

	15-11-2000 20:41									#18
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The USN did a series of design studies on powering variouse ships with Nuclear reactors, including what would have been a de facto Nuclear powered Batleship,(without the Gun armament, it would be more acurate to describe them as a 1950-70 "Arsenal ship" /Cruise misile launcher, however, I dont think they took the pojects mutch beyond the Design study phase, )

their were a few one-up designes of Batleships with internal combustion recipocating engin, but aparently for the most part the early ships were Considered experimental, becuase of actual and precived mantinnece problems(basicaly, its one thing to have to dismatle a destoyers engin, but to do simualr work on a BB would be a nightmare)

	15-11-2000 21:31									#19
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It's tru, no one has or ever has had nuclear-powered battleships -Soviets never built such ships. We only still keep them around to drain what use we can out of them, because there's really no needing them in modern war.

	16-11-2000 10:59									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

While I am no expert on naval history and do not know about nuclear BB's I'd be really suprised.

The primary reason that subs went nuclear is so they do not need to surface for air. I doubt a BB needs the power of nuclear power and so the cost is not justified. BB's are just not big enough I think... they are not afterall super carriers.

Well I'm off to see if CTPII is at the local games shop.

Gedrin

	16-11-2000 01:25									#21
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Back to our regularly scheduled thread topic...

What I'd like to see in a CTP II mod is a 'fleshing out' of the time periods by addition of 4 or 5 technologies and units to each time period. Nothing crazy, just the addition of a few more options.

I felt originally that this may occur with the design of CTP II, but alas, the number of techs and units have not changed significantly.



------------------
Light the fuse!

	16-11-2000 01:46									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yeah, Ctp2 definitely needs more fleshing out in the unit and advance department, though we need to figure out how to add advances without causing the problems that occurred in the med mod.

	16-11-2000 13:50									#23
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I agree, the Medieval and Industrial Age need to be put 'back' in and I also think that the Ancient Age should be split in two (as it is it covers almost 5000 of the 6300 years and even in the MedMod is was 4500 years, that can't possible be right).

I did some experimenting with the unit charts yesterday and could come up with slightly under 120 units that would be a minimum for a good representation of history (and I only used units for which there already exist sprites, either in CtPI (including mods) or CtPII).

The main problem of course is that the max number of advances in CtPI appears to be 128 (like Gedrin explained above), so if that holds for CtPII I'd have a big problem fitting all those in That, and I'm not convinced Activision will make the CtPI sprites available for us to use in CtPII

	16-11-2000 14:10									#24
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When I'lll get it I'll start on two things.
1. Underwater Scenario - Make use of the underwater units and exploit SLIC to the max. Dont have a story yet(post if you have an idea )
2. Gather a small team (or I'll do it by myself ) of people to write a guide on 'Creation for the Dummy' so all thsoe people with great ideas can actually implement them. Hoppefully this guide will kick ass and then it will end up on teh activison site

But I wont get teh game till it comes out in Oz so....

	16-11-2000 20:08									#25
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I'm considering adding some SLIC to destroy the slaver, when he's part of a winning stack; to simulate him (or them) transporting the slave(s) back to the appropriate city.

The slaver is bad in his unlimited form, because he allows the ultimate population increase blag; far worse than ICS in my opinion, and in fact makes ICS *MUCH WORSE*. You pay once, you put the slaver in a half decent attack stack, and keep attacking barbarians and the unwitting AI and gaining, the only 'cost' being his upkeep.

Getting one free pop for a slaver in my eyes is fair, not including the city slaving, which I believe is fair and works already, since it can be countered, and he has a chance of failing and being captured.

In game effects, making one combat capture per slaver unit will mitigate the unbalancing force that the slaver provides. This however has the possibility of making the anti-slavery units/wonders too cheap, so they should have their costs increased to balance.
[This message has been edited by TheLimey (edited November 16, 2000).]