15-10-1999 10:17									#31
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rah/matt/carnide/berz: was I the only one who couldn't rejoin Wednesday? I didn't get knocked off line, but icq wouldn't work, I couldn't rejoin the game, and I couldn't even load the forum to see if messages were here. Was it my IP? Is my civ still alive? I tried for half an hour, but finally went to bed.

	16-10-1999 09:24									#32
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When I was playing in the zone I was always expanding my 'zonefriends' list which I told ppl they could get on by being dependable and get kicked off of by being otherwise. So I had a bunch of ppl that I would play and bs w/ and just generally be friendly with and friends of.
Well it's no hard and fast rule but I'm usually fairly beligerant and often downright agressive w/ the 2nd person I meet.The first person I try to team w/ and get the sci going and cover each other's back. Well in one game I met a friend of mine first. We had a grt time,traded everything and kicked butt until the game fell apart.The next game we were also both in,but this time I met him second.He imidiatly started gifting me maps and sci even though I didn't go the alliance route.When I hit him w/ everything I had...

Well he was shocked. I never felt so guilty marching into anyones capitol in my life.Hey,he set himself up to be a sucker and I just did what I had to do to win.In a wargame,don't be surprised if you end up in a war.

His was the worst strategy of all.Trust based on a prior game's alliance.

Don't read this and think you know what I'll do if we ever play. This is a trend in my play,not a rule.

	16-10-1999 19:05									#33
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That's why I always figure that a peace treaty is just the first step toward war.

An Alliance is one thing... anything else is meaningless. I NEVER trust anybody that I'm not allied with

	17-10-1999 04:30									#34
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On the topic on allies -

When I play MP and take an ally I always feel like I have to be friends in later games....

It is fun to co-ordinate attacks though

One thing to add about playing, when your off exploring and you meet another MP civ, if you have a better unit do you ;-

1) Attack mercifully
2) Make peaceful first contact
3) Bully him

Even if I'm playing a duel I firstly offer peace, then depending on my situation attack or offer alliance.

What does everyone else think?

Eddy

	17-10-1999 07:16									#35
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When I ally it is until only my ally and myself are viable contenders. And this doesn't mean just that we are far ahead in the power graph. That can change wildly.

When I make a peace treaty early on I intend to keep it for quite some time, or irreconcilable differences arise. But it isn't eternal.

I see no problem with violting a peace treaty made 40 turns earlier. But an unprovoked attack 3 or 4 turns after the treaty was signed is, IMHO, bad ettiquite.
There are exceptions, of course, such as provocative actions on his part, supporting an ally, etc. But a peace treaty should mean something.

	17-10-1999 07:51									#36
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In duel, when you know you will be at war with each other, should you kill on sight or wait.... standoff....

then if you stand off who should attack first and is it bad show to attack first?

In the duel I'm playing now, we stood off and prepared to fight. We drew a line and said not to cross it. The war started because he played with diplomats in my cities! I didn't start it!

Eddy

	17-10-1999 08:28									#37
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General thoughts.....


peace, duels, EXCUSE ME. If you're in a duel, attack attack attack.


If you have a superior unit and they are not your allies, you must attack or risk being attacked back.

Never broken an alliance. (because the games usually end in concession and not destruction so it's never been down to the final two.)

RAH

	17-10-1999 14:59									#38
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Ok, duels attack but other game types? 3-4 players?

The way I play is to try and find the top civ and make allies and attack anyone inbetween

What if I'm in the lead? Anybody will do!

Eddy

	18-10-1999 19:27									#39
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In a multiplayer game that is not a duel or arena match... I will always try to make an alliance with the first person I've met that doesn't already have an alliance. I will never settle for just peace... that's like kissing your sister If I think the other person is already in an alliance, I will attack 9 or of 10 times. If I have an alliance already, I will test the waters on a peace treaty with anybody else I meet. I never expect them to say yes, but I will ask.
Sometimes, in a large game, I don't mind having a peace treaty with members of other alliances if we are trying to catch up to somebody that has a big lead.

	18-10-1999 20:34									#40
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Peace Treaties can work if you are already at war with another civ and don't wish to be in an alliance or at war with the player. As long as borders are respected then peace treaties can work.
As for alliances, limiting yourself to just one can be problematic in a big game.
The best game I played in had a tri-party alliance that cut down the number one player to number 3. Although the number 1 player had an alliance and was very strong, he knew that ultimatly the 3 countries in this alliance were by far and away the most dominant force on the planet.
When the alliance began to crumble, so did the game unfortunatly, and now a state of unrest and uneasy alliances dominate world stratergy.
I have never broken an alliance, and rarely break Peace treaties, but find other players break Peace treaties like they didn't exist.
My advice, be wary of peace treaties and make sure you're well defended, or at least make sure you can trust the opposing civ player.
Once someone has broken my trust, there's little chance of me trusting them in any other game.

Also, any treaty or alliance can only be applied to a single game. I got caught ince by believing that the tremendous help I gave a player in one game meant that he'd be eager to continue our diplomatic friendship. I left myself poorly defended as he was near by and he promptly kicked my arse and wiped me off the face of the planet.
He remains a good ally in one game, yet every other game is different.

As for the better unit idea, I think bullying is a great tactic.

	19-10-1999 10:26									#41
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If you want a peace treaty to stick establish a time when it will end. "Lets make a treaty for 200 years,then talk about it again". You might still be surprise attacked but I see it as less likely. A 'non agression 'agreement',not 'treaty' should be an option that is not as binding as a'peace treaty'."Lets have a non aggression treaty for 200 years,if that works to our mutual satisfaction then we could consider peace"

Also the most boring game is often the one that is all tied up in alliances. Particularly duels Anyway something to limit alliances a bit without curtailing freedom of action might be interesting. Maybe 'alliance points'. You recieve 2 points per turn. An alliance costs 50 points for the person who suggests it and 25 for the other player. Both expend one point per turn to keep it going,thereby making the next alliance tougher to make and reducing the eagerness with which some players jump into agreements. Perhaps a peace treaty should cost something,or the breaking of a peace treaty should cost.
If Civ 3 increases the # of Civs perhaps it will keep 'alliance lock' from occuring,turning the alliance game into an oriental bazzaar with lots of choices and action like in real life instead of the sparse planet of Civ2.

	19-10-1999 13:06									#42
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If someone attacks you I think it wrong to distrust that player for the next game.You should play a variety of "styles".It keeps you from becoming predictable and it livens up the game.I find if left alone most players will develop well.If they are harassed by someone then its a different story.

In the game I have going now,I went ai hunting early and wiped out 3 ai civs and captured a bunch of cities as well as the Collosus.
Meanwhile,the 3 human civs have allied begun working together.I have slowed one down but have left the others,who have not attacked me,alone.In fact I was trading caravans with 1 of them until I recently discovered the existance of the "Great Alliance"The one I am harrassing was in the lead tech wise and doing very well.Now the other 2 are emerging.

Its not likely I will win this game,but I have had a profound effect on the course of events and it has been a gas.Now the next game I may be the threatened member of an alliance.

	19-10-1999 17:37									#43
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Alliances from previous games mean nothing to me in new games. If betrayed in a previous game, that's different. That takes me longer to get over, if ever. If I am in an alliance early and find another person early, the board will determine what I do. But in most cases, I like to harrass and force the other team into building defenses. It's hard to send settlers out to found new cities if they have to worry about an agressive enemy on top of Barbs. Limiting others early expansion is always a good strategy.

RAH

Raging hoards rock.

	29-11-1999 05:59									#44
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I don't have anything further to add to this as I have yet to play multiplayer (but will be soon ) I just wanted to bring this back to the top as it has been one of the more interesting threads.

	30-11-1999 18:09									#45
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Eddy- attack. And make sure you have enough units to take his city. Twice in a dual with Matt if I had just one more unit or [in the most pathedic case] one more movement, I would have captured some cities. Go militarist right away and explore like your nuts. Find him and [attempt] to destroy him.

But make sure you don't fall behind technologicly.

Dumbest civ strat? Trading cities for techs- if its that one tech that gets you funde or robotics that one thing...if it gets you like mathmatics, then your a fool. And never trade cities for techs early in the game.

	30-11-1999 18:10									#46
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Eddy- attack. And make sure you have enough units to take his city. Twice in a dual with Matt if I had just one more unit or [in the most pathedic case] one more movement, I would have captured some cities. Go militarist right away and explore like your nuts. Find him and [attempt] to destroy him.

But make sure you don't fall behind technologicly.

Dumbest civ strat? Trading cities for techs- if its that one tech that gets you funde or robotics that one thing...if it gets you like mathmatics, then your a fool. And never trade cities for techs early in the game.

	02-12-1999 11:31									#47
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I attack Rah's city protected by at least 1 vet pike.My vet knight dies with hardly a scratch to Rah's pike.Oh yeah,Rah builds on hills,mountains.forests etc.So what do I do next?Attack with 2 more vet knights.Same result.Still trying to figure that out

	05-12-1999 00:55									#48
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Vet knight: 4 att x 50% vet= 6 att.
vet pike: 2 att x200% vs horse x 50% vet x 100% hills, x 25% fortified=2 x 375= a defense of 7.5 (and civ2 does count fractions)

This means it is no surprise that you lose attacking with knights. try crusaders (5 x 50%= 7.5 att), they have a much better chance. always attack in groups of at least 3 two move units.

optional: if he has city walls, then 2x 675%=13.5. If you dont have leadership, metallurgy, and can't blow up the wall for some reason, build a fortress and fill it with catapults and 1 defender. 3 vet catapults to 1 vet piker is the ratio to attack with. vet catapult is att 9.

	05-12-1999 13:18									#49
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Did you calc that right seeker? Lets see
pikeman 2
vet 3 50%
fortified 4.5 50%
mountain 9 200%
against 2x 13.5 50%

Attacking with 6 just doesn't cut it. Unless you attack with lots of 6s. 7.5 is much better but vet catapults evens it out pretty well.

And where there's one vet pikeman, there's usually more. heheheheheh

RAH

	05-12-1999 14:38									#50
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Oh, mountain. I thought he said hills (which is 100%). Also: i just add up all the percent bonuses and multiply the base strength by that number. Do some multipliers get applied first/does it make any difference?

If it's a mountain, I say don't be the AI. just go around it, pillage his food.
[This message has been edited by Seeker (edited December 05, 1999).]

	06-12-1999 00:24									#51
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Ya.I was attacking a mountain city from a mountain.This is "stupid strategy" right?Thats what this was, stupid strategy.But I like to mess around in short games.

I said "at least 1 pike" hehehe

	06-12-1999 02:51									#52
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Seeker -

If i am correct, by the rules of the Associative Property of Multiplication, it doesn't matter what order you multiply the numbers by, it will always be the same.

Ex.

3*(2*4) = 3*(8) = 24
OR
(3*2)*4 = (6)*4 = 24
OR
(3*4)*2 = (12)*2 = 24

Doesn't matter what ya do, it'll always be the same.

	06-12-1999 07:25									#53
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RAH

Mountains are not x2 defense, but rather +200%, which is the same as x3

(original 100% +200% bonus =300%, same as x3)

I get 2 x (1.5 for being vet) x (2 for defending against mobile unit) x (1.5, fortified) x 3 (mountain)=27. Moral of the story, when someone has a vet fortified pikeman on a mountain top, and all you have to attack with are mobile units, unless you have at least vet dragoons, just stay away. And even with dragoons you can expect at least a 2 to 1 loss ratio.

I have heared that somewhere in the rules text it states that pikemen only defend at +50% (ie x 1.5) against mobile units as opposed to + 1005. but that would still mean that in the above example the pikeman would defend at 20.25