11-11-2000 10:14									#1
	You could build an Empire State Building after disconvering Corporation? What kind o Put an end to popups!

of bull is that? This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. And its an improvement so any city could build it. This game has become way too America-centric.

	11-11-2000 10:55									#2
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Just use your imagination and imagine something else. I used to do that with the Alpha Centauri space ship in Civ-2. I imagined that i "constructed" everlasting world peace here on earth instead.

No big deal.

In CTP-2 "the Gaia Controller opens the door to a true world utopia, free from want, conflict, scarcity, and strife".

Those who wants a space journey just have to imagine that instead.

	11-11-2000 18:56									#3
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I'm sure its a wonder, not a standard improvement.

	11-11-2000 19:40									#4
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I'm sorry, but classing this building as a wonder is laughable. There are plenty of buildings bigger than the Empire State.

Yet they don't have the channel tunnel as a wonder, which is the first tunnel of its kind.

I'm not going to say any more, last time I mentioned that the original was too US-centric I had right-wing Americans who thought the entire world was made by their country on my back, claiming I insulted the States.

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

	11-11-2000 20:41									#5
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true

I wouldn't consider a tall building to be a wonder or sydney oprah house to be a wonder, or a massive bridge

a wonder is something that seems impossible to complete

like landing on the moon, or building a city under the water, I wouldn't consider landing on mars a wonder, coz if you've already worked out how to land on the moon, then the process is somewhat similar for mars, but terraforming mars would be a wonder, or discovering cure for cancer, etc. really really big, important and seemingly impossible tasks.

	11-11-2000 20:43									#6
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1 more thing,

by giving not-so-impossible tasks as a wonder to build, then you are degrading the meaning of a wonder, so you are lessening the feeling of completing something great

why do game designers not think of these things themselves? why do the ppl who don't make games have to!?!? aye!

	12-11-2000 10:55									#8
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The Empire State building is a wonder, and not that "great" of one at that. All it does is increase your regard with other empires. You can get access to it in the Modern Era. There are a lot of "Wordly" wonders though. Ramayana, The Great Wall, The Pyramids, Globe Sat, etc. The game is not USA centric, but it was made by Americans so you have to give them a little leeway.



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Smooshies

	12-11-2000 10:58									#9
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Empire State Building was the first major skyscraper, however I don't feel it is a world wonder. I am from New York and think its a great building, but I don't see at as a wonder and definitely not a city improvement.

As I recall, us Americans did not blast you, most of us agreed that we are over-represented. However, it is important to note that the game designers are from the United States. I think the discussion came too late in the development phase for them to change their course. The game is definitely too focused on American advances and wonders, but then again the U.S. has been one of the leading powers in the modern era.

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	11-11-2000 23:17									#10
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Building the Empire State Building Wonder will higher your reputation among other Civs? I don't see how that building is related to international relationship. If the building decrease city size unhappyness by 5 point than it'll make sense.

	11-11-2000 23:45									#11
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It is a new step in engineering. People come from all over the world to see it. It is something to admire. I think this is what they were thinking. Like I said, it is not that powerful of a wonder. There are a lot of other wonders. Each age has wonders associated with it. Ancient (no US wonders), Renaissance (no US wonders), Modern (finally, some US wonders including the Emp. State Building), Genetic (not really US wonders, more advanced), and Diamond (way too advanced to be considered US). The US plays its biggest role during the modern age. I guess you could say everything is US biased, but it would be hard to prove to me. The World Peace Center (gives an embasy in every empire) may be similar to the UN. Is that a US wonder? I think of it as more global. Sure they could have put the Eifel (sp?) tower in, but it was not the first sky scraper. oh well (sigh).

	12-11-2000 00:00									#12
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Your right, it is a wonder. But it is still outrageous.

	12-11-2000 02:01									#13
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A comment about being "US-centric". I can't really say if the game is too "US-centric" or not. But if it is, you have to consider why. The game was made in the US, and for the most part our team is not a bunch of world travelers. I wasn't there for this, but imagine a group of people, all american, who are sitting in a room trying to think up XX wonders. What are the odds of them thinking up the things that are closer to their homes, or something they've seen, rather than things from around the world? Even if they are trying to be global in nature, odds are they don't know as many "international" major events as local ones. It's not that anyone is trying to "slam" other cultures, it's just that the game was designed by people who know local things better than "foreign" things. I am fairly certain that they tried to make things balanced and global in nature, but when the entire world is your critic, it's impossible to satisfy everyone.

Pyaray

	12-11-2000 06:54									#14
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Geez people, don't get too excited about this, I agree that this might not be the most awe inspiring wonder in the game but it is apart of it. And I don't see where you see that America has taken over the game. We don't force our culture on anyone. It's not our fault that our way of life is so attractive. And for the record when I play the game it is usually as the English or Germans because I can't really see America as a civ all by itself. But we are not out to make ourself as one.

	12-11-2000 11:27									#15
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Talk about a non-issue.

	12-11-2000 15:34									#16
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Not quite, compare it with a film like Independence Day, if you're seeing the Americans with all kind of advanced gunnery and the others awing at them handling the aliens it does feel quite denigrating.

And it does have an effect, not the least on the Americans themselves. Many are convinced that they have many have things no other countries have and mayhem only happens in other places, and when it does happen in US, it's worse elswhere.

	12-11-2000 16:08									#17
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To Pyaray, I appreciate you do your best and I know it’s hard to satisfy everyone but that doesn’t entirely excuse neglecting certain aspects. (it’s not because you cannot create a perfect game that have to make a bad one, if you know what I mean)
Your game IS going to be exported to other parts of the globe so it would be no more than respectfully to foreign customers to consider them. Instead of reasoning that since the game is made in America you only have to consider American customers.

Besides I think that the East India Company or any other of the colonial trading companies of that era is a far better wonder for corporation but I think it’s bit late now to change that.

	12-11-2000 21:24									#19
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For what advance does it stand for ?

I'd rather think the empire state building as an icon of architecture.

	13-11-2000 10:28									#20
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East India Company gives more gold for trade routes that go across oceans. Incorporations were not created until the 1900's, so the East Indian company would beat them out by what, 200 years or so? What other wonders were created around the same time as Corporations? Just wondering.

Maybe everyone ignored my info on what USA wonders there were, but they are only in 1 Age. 2 ages are more advanced and do not include any USA wonders. 2 ages are way before the USA was even formed(thus no USA wonders).

You could say that the modern age is dominated by the Americans, but guess what? As far as technology and military power, it is. This is not to disparage other countries, but one of the reasons it is like this is the fact that it is much easier to start a business or sell your ideas in the USA. Most other 1st world countries are more socialist in nature than the USA and make it much harder to become successful if you have not been born into it. What does this mean? The USA is dominant due to the influx of smart people from all over the world, into the USA.

Just some extra info. I think that the game is less USA oriented than you think, but maybe I am biased. I say, if you don't like the USA, buy the game and play as a different empire. You can play the whole game and never learn any USA technology, units or wonders. Sure, it makes it a lot harder, but could you play the game without Rome and their Hoplites? Nope. I think it would be a mistake to downplay an "Empire" in a game just to make it more historical or atractive to the overseas market. If the game is good, people will buy it. I think a lot of people will buy this game. Heck, its just fun.
[This message has been edited by DarkOrder (edited November 12, 2000).]

	13-11-2000 02:48									#21
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The current form of corporation is from the 19th century (and from Britain, France and Germany just as much as from US!), but other forms are way older, even dating back to the middle ages. The first a juridical forms was made was in the 15th century in England and the East Indian Company was definitely a corporation.

quote: What other wonders were created around the same time as Corporations? Just wondering.

That doesn’t answer what the Empire State building has to do with the corporation.
I still think the empire state building is far more connected to architecture.

quote: You could say that the modern age is dominated by the Americans

The industrial revolution did start in Britain and until the first war Europe was clearly the economic and political centre of the world and British navy and the German army were larger. After WW2 USSR co-dominated militarily and EU and Japan economically.
Most of the technologies in the modern age were European too.

But maybe that’s not how history is taught in US.

Now, suppose you see a baseball game and all the teams in it are Japanese or Cuban, would you buy it? Or how about a book about the history of the global automobile industry that only mentions the French, German and Japanese?

It has nothing to do with anti-Americanism, it’s about feeling denigrated.

	13-11-2000 03:47									#22
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I would say the perception of the US being more advanced is mainly because their population has more disposable income for the latest technological goods. The technology is elsewhere its just more expensive due to the economics of a country.
[This message has been edited by Big Crunch (edited November 12, 2000).]

	13-11-2000 13:39									#23
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I think that the emp. state building is ok for a wonder, even if there are bigger buildings, what you dudes don't understand is that the empire state building was like a breakthrough in mod. construction and if that wasan't built maybe some of the bigger buildings we have today would not be here.

	13-11-2000 18:08									#24
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It may surprise you to know, if it wasn't for the invention of the lift (elevator) we would not have any skyscrapers. Therefore I feel the ESB prerequisite should be lift-building.

	13-11-2000 18:23									#25
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The empire state building is nothing against hollywood. I cant understand how anybody could consider that a wonder.

They should get some of the wonders from civ2 back.

	14-11-2000 03:09									#26
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Not only is it a wonder, but most of the world considered it a wonder for most of the 20th century. And it remains so today, not because of its size, but because of the engineering feat it represents.

Erecting the building -- from first demolition of the Waldorf Hotel to topping it off 102 floors and 1,252 feet up in the air -- took only 11 months. Nobody in Europe or anywhere else has ever come close to that. Further more, the tallest building in the world for most of the 20th century stands perfectly plumb to within 5/8ths of an inch. This was accomplished not with the aid of computers, but with paper and pencil by a guy standing on another building across 34th street.

Beams were rolled off the mill in Pennsylvania, trained over to New Jersey, then ferried to the 33rd St. dock where they were taken individually by truck -- many of them STILL WARM -- to the sight for immediate hoisting, connecting and rivetting. Contractors Starret Bros. & Eken were so exacting in their time scheduling that if one truck were more than 10 minutes late, the driver was pulled from the line and told to come back the next day. Enough phone cables were installed in the Empire State to wire most of rural Europe at the time. Further, BECAUSE of this grueling pace, architects Shreve, Harmon & Lamb worked with the contractors to innovate building methods that revolutionized the engineering and construction industries. Their use of natural light in its design has likewise been copied around the world. To ensure enough Belgium marble would be ready when it was needed, an entire German quarry was purchased by the contractors, the marble extracted, cut, finished and shipped all in under a year. Enough electrical wire was laid in the building to wrap around the earth several times. I could go on and on.

But the point is, ALL THIS was done. And to this day the Empire State Building holds all speed records for construction, before or since. All of the technological advances that have followed have yet to produce a feat of greater magnitude in terms of speed and innovation, or its impact on construction around the world.

Upon its completion it was widely hailed as the 8th Wonder.

[This message has been edited by raingoon (edited November 13, 2000).]

	14-11-2000 04:22									#27
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You forgot only one thing - the Empire State Building remained the tallest building in the world for about forty years. It was built in the early 1930's and it wasn't until the 1970's that another building took its place.

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The Electronic Hobbit

	14-11-2000 05:43									#29
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Considering how many tall buildings require complex counterbalancing devices to reduce the building's sway generated by the wind and how quickly the Empire State Building was built (not to mention how untried many of its construction techniques were), I consider either swaying only 3cm without any such devices or standing straight to only 5/8 of and inch away from perfect a major feat.

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The Electronic Hobbit

	14-11-2000 06:20									#30
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I'm not arguing with the acheivement, I'm just surprised that a sway of just 3cm (=2 * 5/8in) could be achieved. I would have expected a sway of half a dozen feet (=two metres).
[This message has been edited by Big Crunch (edited November 13, 2000).]