15-11-2000 06:26									#1
	Empire State IS a Legitimate Wonder Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Why the Empire State Building IS a Wonder
(re-posted from another thread; in light of some of the comments, I think this bears repeating)

This has nothing to do with being American-centric. Not only is the Empire State Building a legitimate "Wonder," but most of the world considered it a Wonder for most of the 20th century. And it remains so today, not because of its size, but because of the engineering feat it represents -- a feat that has not been topped before or since.

Erecting the building -- from first demolition of the Waldorf Hotel to topping it off 102 floors and 1,252 feet up in the air -- took only 11 months. Nobody in Europe or anywhere else has ever come close to that. Further more, the tallest building in the world for most of the 20th century (some 40 years) stands perfectly plumb to within 5/8ths of an inch. This was accomplished not with the aid of computers, but with paper and pencil by a guy standing on another building across 34th Street.

Beams were rolled off the mill in Pennsylvania, trained over to New Jersey, then ferried to the 33rd St. dock where they were taken individually by truck -- many of them STILL WARM -- to the sight for immediate hoisting, connecting and rivetting. Contractors Starret Bros. & Eken were so exacting in their time scheduling that if one truck were more than 10 minutes late, the driver was pulled from the line and told to come back the next day. Enough phone cables were installed in the Empire State to wire most of rural Europe at the time. Further, BECAUSE of this grueling pace, architects Shreve, Harmon & Lamb worked with the contractors to innovate building methods that revolutionized the engineering and construction industries. Their use of natural light in its design has likewise been copied around the world. To ensure enough Belgium marble would be ready when it was needed, an entire German quarry was purchased by the contractors, the marble extracted, cut, finished and shipped all in under a year. Enough electrical wire was laid in the building to wrap around the earth several times. I could go on and on.

But the point is, ALL THIS was done. And to this day the Empire State Building holds all speed records for construction, before or since. All of the technological advances that have followed have yet to produce a feat of greater magnitude in terms of speed and innovation, or its impact on construction around the world.

Upon its completion it was widely hailed as the 8th Wonder.

	15-11-2000 07:25									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We are here to discuss the game not the Empire State Building itself. My point is, this building while admirable has nothing to do with international relationship and yet building it in CTP2 game will give you diplomacy bonus which is abusolutly rediculous.

	15-11-2000 08:11									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree with raingoon. Also, the ESB is known to attract giant apes. That should count for something.

	15-11-2000 19:57									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree that it can be considered a Wonder. We already know its not the most powerful wonder (I might have a problem if it gave you a peace treaty with every nation or something), but as an engineering feat it is a great example. I'm British, and I would still think of the Empire State as a superb acheivement - and one that makes me think more of the U.S. as a result; I would expect that this would be even more true of when it was first built.

	16-11-2000 20:50									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Would the Statue of Liberty been a better choice?

	16-11-2000 21:46									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No no, Statue of Liberty is only a boring woman, how can that be a wonder. I think the US Contitution might be even better choice even though the recent election tells us that the govt. system set up under this guide line is still far from perfect.

	17-11-2000 10:48									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Statue of Liberty was a gift from France to celebrate the USa's independence from England and to highlight Liberty and freedom for all. I can see this as increasing diplomatic ties with others.

If CTP2 wants to focus on some feat that should raise a nations reputation in the eyes of others, how about the landing on the moon or resiliance of the UK in the Battle of Britain (WWII) or even Ghandi's Demonstrations? Along this line, the ESB could work, as could the Eiffel Tower (which already held the diplomatic wonder status in Civ-2)

Other ideas?

	17-11-2000 02:43									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

raingoon, I hate to interrupt you in your crusade for the empire state building but you're completely missing the point. To begin with the question still remains what it has to do with corporation. It's an architecture and construction feat, not a business one.
And as I explained in the previous thread (why did you start a new one? it confuses everyone) corporationism was not an American invention and it wasn't invented in the 19th or 20th century, which makes the connection with the empire state building even more disputable.
[This message has been edited by Linzen (edited November 16, 2000).]

	17-11-2000 03:18									#10
	Support Apolyton

Hey, I'm not on a crusade -- just a mission from God. And as far as I know Florida state law says I can start any thread I want, baby -- so your confusion is your own. But if you can give me a European or Asian country whose impact on world finance exploded or rocked harder than America's in the 20th century, I'm all yours. Sometimes a thing can be wrong in the think of it, but exactly right in the feel of it and if you're one who doesn't feel it, hey, you don't feel it. That's completely -- as the other kids say -- cool.

	17-11-2000 03:31									#11
	Got spare money?

The Empire State Building was made 'obsolete' by the World Trade Towers.

That means it shouldn't last very long in game terms.

God, you Yanks'll be saying the White House is in the game next .

------------------
...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

	17-11-2000 05:29									#13
	Tired of ads?

Wait -- you mean the White House isn't in the game? Nah, you're joking. Right? You're not joking? Wait. I'm confused, he said the White House wasn't in the game, but what kind of game wouldn't have the White House in the...

	17-11-2000 09:53									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

If you want to include a truely memorable event involving the US President's home, how about having "Burning of the White House" as a Feat of Wonder?

Viva Canada!