09-12-1999 13:23									#1
	Would anyone like to play like this...? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I dont know how this would work but...

To me (yeah I complain a lot) MP is just a race through the science chart. To me this is kinda boring, given the amount of time it takes to play.

I'd like to try a game where players can not trade techs. Would this balance the game more?? Would this lead to maybe more wars?? Would this make the 'instand alliance no matter who you are' less common??

You want the latest weapons - than a player can give the units to a partner. This would slow down the rate of science, making war maybe more possible. With the rate at which science is gained now (two players trading techs) an army (after years of getting ready) is out of date before ever engaging in battle. At the same time I do like wonders and not a big fan (anymore) of wonder free games. This might (I'm thinking) be fun as players go off in different directions as far as science research goes.

Any takers... I'm willing to try a game like this this weekend.
[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited December 09, 1999).]

	09-12-1999 13:40									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

After thinking about it. This would make some wonders, like MPE and GL, even more important to have.

	09-12-1999 14:50									#3
	Remove this text

I would be much more interested in playing a game where the techs stopped so musketeers were never possible. Then there could be years of war without having to worry about obselesence and tech research.

	09-12-1999 15:30									#4
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? do you mean stopped at a point... or no techs at all.

Anyway, with 2 or 3 people trading techs science moves just way to fast. You have to invest everything into research or you will fall behind.

	09-12-1999 16:37									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yeah, the techs would stop. The tech rate might run at 20% of the normal speed or something and nothing at gunpowder or beyond would be reserchable. I'm sure your aware all these things are easily done in the rules files.

	09-12-1999 17:13									#6
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Played a few games like this and people still do the alliance thing just unofficially.Dips are allowed to steal.
An intercepted conversation:"OK.I'll have a boat ready in 2 turns,thats 25 gold and a tech right?"

Be very specific when setting game parameters.

	09-12-1999 17:21									#7
	Suffering from ads?

This sounds like an amusing idea. I think it would proabably make wars more liekly, which can only be a good thing
The only small problem I see is that it would lead to a lot more tech stealing, which I hate anyway. How about an added proviso - no building diplos at all, No building marco polo's and no gl.
As a consequence no one could have embassies, investigate cities, bribe units and so on. Could be fun. Annoy some of the diplo freaks who spend the whole game establishing embassies, bribing units and stealing techs. Good honest war. No prancing about. I'm starting to like the sound of this. I didn't mean to, but as I re-read it it sounds fun.
Could make for an interesting game w/ maybe 4 people.

Graag

	09-12-1999 17:31									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well I suppose that in order to totally devalue techs you could make research run at normal speed so that trading techs and the like would be less valuable. I guess one or two other techs could be shuffled into the early game, perhaps democracy and communism?

	09-12-1999 18:27									#9
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In odd number of persons games, a bunch of us have started playing no trade tech games. This is to protect the "odd man out" from missing out on an alliance, and slowing down the advantage of an early alliance.

It's interesting... The incidence of stealing techs rises a little, but since stealing is the best way to catch up in any game, it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

It does stop the "big lead" that used to come from getting lucky enough to meet somebody far earlier than everybody else does.
But to do this, people have to play by the spirit of the rule. You don't allow people to trade techs for money... $1 for monarchy

	09-12-1999 21:53									#10
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MWHC.... i am surprised someone of your nature doesn't like games whithout wounders as i find that this evens the playing field.. especially if you have no bribe on..... the major flaw i have found to warfare and i love being at war is that once a civ has pikeman..... it makes it difficult to pry his cities loose.

Pikeman are the defenders saving grace to the crusader/knight attack and lets face it x2move units are the safest way to attack in this game including dips.
Its no wonder people don't do early warfare because until calvalry the attacker doesn't really have the advantage over it's defending counterparts of the same era. It is hard for some people to psyche them selves up to attack a city when they need five dips four rifleman and 8 calvalry just to take a decent size city..... i think alot of people can't handle seeing the losses it will take.... especially when they can use tanks and howies and suffer alot less casualties.

I too admit this strat to run through science is rather tedious and boring especiallly due to the amount of games that never get finished.... therefore making modern warfare something that is less practiced and often never used in MP.

But dammint WE are all experts at running through the tech tree until Mikes or Sol arent' we
BTW MWHC if you ever want a war duel or a war game .... i am the guy and it can be to your settings icq#30200920

------------------
War is the answer when you need to strike first.

War is the answer when you think you should strike first

war is the answer when you think others may strike first.

	10-12-1999 10:32									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I like a two or three player game. I'm off all weekend. Saturday night. ICQ 39792652.

The spy/stealing thing is a point. At first I thought well this is ok. You still have to build the boat and dip. Time is taken reaching the city. But, two players right next to eachother could basicly trade diplos (techs). Still, diplos can only steal one tech and than no more from *that* city, right??

	10-12-1999 04:31									#12
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i believe spy stealing is unlimited though MWHC..... so be wary but i prefer no bribe city..... i don't care about units though and any where from two to four is good people wise.... 7 players takes too long unless its a diplomatic gaem

	12-12-1999 05:12									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

Seems to me that once feudalism comes around, and everyone has it, the defender will always have a serious advantage until someone starts getting some of the more advanced war fighting techs, unless one of the players choses to gamble and neglect defence.

And if you hate the "race through the tech tree" feeling, just take a research path that most don't follow. For example, many people go all out for the big happies to begin with, so you might want to go for the science wonders, a combo of leo's and the acadamy, or the like. Since you won't be going for the same thing it won't feel like so much of a race. And besides, it really sucks when you go all out for happy wonders, focusing your early strategies on that, and then get beat by 1 turn to MC and JSB. Then you may well be through.

	12-12-1999 07:20									#14
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Mathew i agree the pike man is a real thorn in the side for the warmonger... slows war down and turns it into a diplomatic festival

	12-12-1999 21:19									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Most of the games we have played lately have been no alliance no tech trading. The games seem to move faster year wise. Which is the main reason I like them. And it does seem to lesson the advantage of getting a 2x movement unit from the first hut. (i.e. find another person faster and leapfrog sciences.)

In one game, I made an unofficial alliance. (traded maps and opened borders for diplos to steal techs.) This kinda worked but it did slow the game down. So I haven't done it recently. Now I put my effort into making it cost people to steal from me. (ie. use choke points and keep ships in costal cities in an attempt to sink ships and make it harder and more expensive for people to do it) This has proven to be more fun. Once feudalism is discovered and vet pikeman are defending cities, there is a lull in fighting. But if you're in active spy defense, there are enough battles to keep it interesting.

The GL is almost more important than the happiness wonders in these games since with stealing, it's harder for people keep you from getting certain techs. Last night, I wasn't even trying for invention, and got it from the GL. If I had had enough shields saved I could have bought it before either one of the others had a chance to build it (due to the turn order, and I wish I could have cause it really would have pissed them off)

To make the game even more warmongering I might be tempted to play with building of:
GL
all happiness wonders
NOT BE ALLOWED.

But it is hard to convince people to play this way. I've had to listen to a heck of lot of whining about the no tech trading rule.

But that is the most fun with MP, adjusting the rules and seeing if people are flexible enough to change their stratagies.

RAH

	12-12-1999 23:33									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That might be fun to play. That is, if I ever get around to playing an MP game.

	13-12-1999 00:56									#17
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If you want a warmonger game you have to play at emperor so that the happinness wonder are not as important, on a tiny map so that you have to fight for room to expand and you should forbid to build cities on hill or montains and city bribing. You may have to ban great wall because in that style of game this wonder is huge and you can't destroy city walls with dips.