03-12-1999 18:03									#1
	Governments: What do you think? Increase Your PM Length

I was wondering what you all thought about the governments in civ2 and which ones you used (in default situations as well as special situations) I myself prefered republic untill about a week ago, now I say that communism is the best all-around gov, and the vet spies aspect is just too cool for bringing down those mega cities with walls, costal fortress, sam bat etc. What do you all think?

	03-12-1999 19:00									#2
	Put an end to popups!

I think that democracy is the best. With Mike and Bach at you disposal you can fight skirmishes, then provided you get the UN and Sufferage there is nothing to stop you fighting like a fundamentalist. If you don't get the UN, you have to be sure to get the Statue of Liberty so you can switch governments quickly, declare war and switch back again. Also, with democracy you get so much trade you can afford a generous luxury rate and still make as much money/ beakers as a communist. That what I think anyway. It should be noted though that I'm not great at bloodlust, more of an ACer myself...

	03-12-1999 19:13									#3
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I saw "Braveheart". Thought you were pretty bloody effective with the old biffo, my friend.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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	03-12-1999 23:15									#4
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We rocked back in the day. Its so true, . I watched it Brooklyn after a year away from home and I got pretty involved with it all ... that said I watched it subsequently and the historical inacuracies are pretty awful.

On the bright side though I gave a pound to a guy collecting for MA'M, the anti monarchist pressure group, today

My wee sister got back from Oz yesterday.

	04-12-1999 00:21									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

with "happy" wonder-Democracy

Without(almost always)-pea pickin Communism

I've had some pretty good Monarchys also..

	04-12-1999 03:03									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Democratic Fundamentalists Rule!

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Scouse Git[1]

	04-12-1999 10:55									#7
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Hamish - we trust your wee sister returned in the same untarnished condition she left.

Just as long as she stayed well clear of Rasputin.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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	04-12-1999 12:35									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I prefer communism, if war; fundamentalism.
Democracy ? Not so often, but if happyness wonders, like Michel's chapel, then yes.

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Long live Rasbelin,
the glorious king of
the Celts !

	05-12-1999 11:51									#9
	Tired of ads?

I don´t like Democracy mainly for one reason. I always see myself forced to disband most of my martial law units. What a waste! But even after that production seems to run slower than before.
How do you help out with that? Do you disband? Do you use Leo´s before disbanding?

	05-12-1999 13:47									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Democracy rules!
Because of the science output of course and your cities are unbribable

You have, however, to choose the right moment to change to it (after you built your key wonders). The production isn't too good in an undeveloped city.
Except when the need arises to eliminate a rival, I stay in it for the rest of the game.
(single player 2.42)


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Adopt, Adapt and Improve

	06-12-1999 07:03									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The production penalties in democracy are more than made up for once you have size 20 to 30 cities (by celebrating; much faster than waiting for natural growth, even with the pyramids). A few of those new citizens can work shield squares too. And with the economic potential of monarchy you can easily make up for the lower production compared to what you would have in communism. Of course celebrating in democracy to grow, and then using the SL to switch to communism, raising luxuries high enough to celebrate under communism, and then lowering them back down to the minimum to keep celebrating is also an option.

	06-12-1999 08:55									#12
	Got spare money?

For an very long while, it was Fundamentalism. By the time I changed to it I was usually leading in science anyway, plus I dropped my tax rate and luxury rates right down to get my science rate up a bit. As of late though I've tried to avoid it in favour of some of the others. Right now I'm happy with Republic, although I intend to give Democracy a bit of a whirl.

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	06-12-1999 16:34									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, I dunno. She went out there as she had a boyfriend in the Australian Navy...

Still they split up more or less instantly

Then she spent the next year touring around the outback as part of a travelling wrestling/ circus troupe. I suppose thats what an Oxford education does for you.
PS you'll find my name is John, not Hamish, Bruce. Though my middle is Lachlan, so that may be Scottish enough for you.

	06-12-1999 23:39									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Democracy is my preferred govt for the trade. The only drawback is you can't get tribute. I like to form as many alliances as I can for gifts, but there are always a couple holdouts who won't join an alliance. When I discover espionage I will switch to Communism to build an army of vet spies; at the same time I can bully my non-allies for tribute for a while.

	07-12-1999 13:30									#15
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I remember the first time I play civ2 i had no idea what governments are and stayed in despotism.

Anyway, if you've got every tech (ie you are reasearching future tech), go with Fundamentalism. Apart from research, Fundamentalism is a perfect government. Also if the Great Library hasn't expired yet, go woth Fundamentalism.

	07-12-1999 14:39									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Fundamentalism is good, TOO good IMHO. The reduction of science by 50% is not a good enough disadvantage when you consider the phenomenal amount of money and happiness you can gain from it, not to mention military support.

	07-12-1999 14:42									#17
	Remove this text

Hey, that was my 31st post - I'm a Civer now.

Just had to say that.

	08-12-1999 04:04									#18
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I stay in monarchy until I get SOL. I then alternate between fundamentalism and democracy. I use WLTP days to build up the cities, then go fundy and build infrastructure and accumulate gold. When I have built markets and aqueducts, I repeat the WLTP process. Later, I use fundy to build factories. At science 50%, taxes 50% science is ok. If I need to speed up research, I can go to democracy and churn out techs quickly. I find that under fundy, the AI slows down it's science also.

	08-12-1999 19:11									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Why communism, for war or peace? Fundamentalism seems more powerful: no unhappiness, bundles of cash coming in as geofelt points out, and so on.

But what does communism do other than provide vet spies -- is that it?

	08-12-1999 20:32									#20
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Under communism there is no unhappiness, plus there is no science penalty as in fundamentalism.

I honestly don't see the appeal of fundamentalism. I spend most of the game in demo and I am never in want of gold. The few times I have tried fundy the gold I got was less than my tax revenue under demo.

	09-12-1999 10:06									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Don't think one can build an armed forces of 50+ spies, cruise missiles, alpines, fighters, marines, etc. under Democracy, if that is the goal. Fundamentalism allows up to 10 units to be away from home from each city. Communism is similar, a little less number of units per city but maintaining the science rate.

	09-12-1999 10:49									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Communism does not eliminate unhappiness. There is martial law and no "unit away" penalty under Com that is lacking from Rep and Dem. But Rep and Dem produce extra trade making luxuries worthwhile. Since luxuries aren't efficient under Com, you need those 3 units for martial law. Since Com only supports 3 units for free, any non-martial law units end up costing shields just as in Rep and Dem.

Fundy's gold advantage is most pronounced in the mid game. Assuming you built MC and JSB, each city produces at least 6 gold per turn, which is then augmented by Marketplaces and Banks. Older cities will also have a Temple, meaning 8 gold. Some cities may have a Colloseum, for 11 gold. This is before counting gold from trade, which is typically 50% under Fundy. Also, Temples, Cathredals and Colloseums no longer cost gold for upkeep. This make ICS a perfect strategy. More cities = more gold but no penalty. If you have 50 cities, you produce at least 300 gold before counting trade.

Fundy civs can also get away with all sorts of Diplo and Spy naughtiness that would cause a Democracry to collapse or hurt your reputation in Com. Fundy civs need spend little or no time fussing about newly conquered cities. No need to rush buy a Temple, Marketplace or Colloseum or leave a bunch of units behind to eliminate unhappiness. Just march on to the next city.

In the latter part of the game when all your cities are large and have lots of improvements, Dem is better though.

	08-12-1999 23:18									#23
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ST,

Nice writeup, as usual. I see Communism as the research government for ICS. Small cities (up to size 5) can easily be kept pacified by a couple troops, allowing you one support-free unit or settler in the field. The research rate is better than 3x the rate under fundy (80% vs an effective max of 25%). But once you have the advances you need (usualy Theology and Leadership for me), it makes sense to switch to Fundy.

One quibble - I recall the tithe income not being affected by markets/banks/exchanges.

	08-12-1999 23:58									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Holy cow Sieve - that post felt like giving up a five hole shot from the blue line!

I didn't know that coliseums increase your tithes by 3 and none of the happy improvements cost upkeep. D'oh.

Thanks!

	09-12-1999 16:13									#25
	Got spare money?

Angus - boyfriend in the Australian Navy? A travelling circus/wrestling troupe? Oxford educated?

So she can read, write and wrestle. Much much too overqualified for any Australian sailor.



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finbar
Mono Rules!
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	09-12-1999 16:35									#26
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I don't think she actually did the wrestling, she was the girl that wandered about holding up the round number card from what I understand. My Mum wasn't too pleased to hear about it.

	09-12-1999 20:14									#27
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D'oh! Sorry for the goof -- thanks, ST. Well, if you're a warmonger I can see now why Fundy might be the gov't of choice. I never play that way.

	10-12-1999 04:43									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If you do the following Democracy is unbeatable:

1) build JS Bach (in addition to whatever else you can). It kicks in AFTER the unit deprture unhappiness. Oc course, that is less important if you

2) build a support city or two. take an engineer and build a city that is only for supporting units. have the worker work a mine. better yet, have an engineer start a mine on the tile where you build the city, although some sonsider this a cheat. Rush-build a factory and with hoovers you'll easily be able to support 10 units. Of course, you may need a lot of units.

3) don't let your ground units make contact with the other side's ground units. if this never happens they won't ask for peace.

4) make every city a trade city. have at least two trade routes/city. that way you'll make loads of cash and science.

5) stay relatively peaceful mid-game. make sure your units are vets and the highest tech available, and don't have too many of them. (the israeli approach)

Anyway, that's what I do. of course it only works for Alpha Centari.

	10-12-1999 05:44									#29
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Okay, so she can only read and write. Still overqualified for an Oz sailor. Amd most Oz men, come to think of it.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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	11-12-1999 04:00									#30
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I don’t think that all our correspondents have quite grasped the importance of the WLT Cardinal Day to a Fundamentalist government. I ran the following test on my current game (nothing special just playing for fun with no particular aim other than winning!) – deity, small world, standard rules, 7 civs, raging hordes – Tax rate: tax=0, science=50%, luxuries=50% 29 out of 31 cities celebrating (1 too small) gold 530, science advance in 5 turns – now change the tax rate to tax=50%, science=50% no celebrations – indeed your income is increased to a magnificent 990 gold, but science plummets to 7 turns per advance. I know which I prefer!
A propos nothing much, there was a thread recently (that I can’t find) about a 12 Wonder city – and all you MP guys said “target!” well my capital (Liverpool of course) currently has 19 Wonders and is building CfC – the Zulus foolishly beat me to the Pyramids thus hastening their demise!


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor