20-11-2000 21:38									#1
	CTPII from a civII loyalist Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I have played mostly on 'hard','gigantic world', '8 civ' settings. Here is
my take...

I avoided cpt1 as many did. My experience with CTPII is positive so far.
Over all I like the game and make the cons below as suggested changes. For
civ'rs whose lives are on hold for CIVIII, I think this is a buy. There is a
little bit of the hoakey extra historical stuff, science fiction at the end.
I had an initial aversion to the non-traditional units (like corporate
branches that leach off other civs spending money) but in the end began to
feel that they were reasonable and represented somewhat real historical
forces.

Diehard civ'rs seem to have a big emotional bump to overcome when having a
non-sidmeyers affairs on the side. But I think this one is more CIV than
SMAC. I don't regret the purchase. Sid will forgive me (right?), because
I'll pay anything for CIVIII. Please tell me that I'm not a bad person.

personal pros -

1) slaving: even though I self righteously avoid taking slaves, it adds a
certain righteous-indignation when it comes to marching into cities that
hold your people as slaves. You feel real good about bringing down the
wrath.
2) you do spend more time playing on the board rather than micormanaging
lists and city windows.
3) no 20 turn hand guidance of caravans.
4) national borders!
5) seems to give a nicer time/technology advance curve feel. It seems that
you spend more BC time. Things advance a little less balistically.
6) improvements are more incremental. Instead of a 50 increase in this or
that commodity, you get 10%. A more realistice feel, for me at least.
7) units sometime talk to you when you click on them or recieve a command.

cons-
1) no large overview map. I would love to get a full screen shot of the
strategic map (with overlays)!Remember when we had a F10 (or something) key
stroke in civ that gave you the god's eye view of empire. That was cool. Why
have we gone to only having these little key hole views available! We need
to the big view to revel in the expansion of our rule!

2) Personally, I would love a richer pre 2100 AD game. I am unable to get
into the futuristic stuff. We could keep loading more advances and units
that were historically real. But I know that this helps sell the game. Just
not my style. Couldn't finish out a whole game of smac because of that.
There is enough non-futuristic stuff in CTPII that I can still 'suspend
disbelief'.

3) no real visual kick from completing improvements. No city view. I really
miss the hoakey civ1 screen where you see the item materializing. Is it
really such a memory issue or CD space issue to give us some a little visual
satisfaction. I think designers are missing the boat with many gamers. It is
not enough to see a little message, then go check the city stats to see a
10% bump on this or that.
[there will come a day when we will open our cities and view a simCity3000
style hustle and bustle city... which will change according to population,
terrain improvements or changes, time period, city improvements.... why not?
It can difinately be done]. I want to feel more like an *emperor*, damn it,
not an *accountant*! More visual information.

4) more statistics to compare yourself to other civs. I miss looking at my
tonage, educational and other stats. I really don't understand why that
stuff has been minimized in the civ lineage of late. SMAC did a good job of
this. I don't mean for this to be up all the time. But I miss hitting a key
and comparing my upward sweep with those brutish 'other' civs. I miss the
feel of gaining ground.

5) More civs in the game at once. I look for the day when there are 30
initial civs on a superhuge map. Let 10 or so be eliminated in first 10k
years. Let increasing returns allow the victors to grow at the expense of
lesser tribes, etc. I know that this is still a computational issue, but one
day. CTPII gives you 8 which is an improvement, but not quite there yet.

	20-11-2000 23:22									#2
	Tired of ads?

RIDE ON MAN!
YOURE SO RIGHT (ESPECIALLY THE VISUAL ISSUES)
And not just the city view they took off the workers monument screen etc..

------------------
WHAT IS LIFE AND WHERE DOES IT COME FROM?
GOI-FONG-TZA ZENMASTER

	20-11-2000 23:53									#3
	Suffering from ads?

Excellent ideas! I really like the bit about the SimCity like city view. Perhaps one day there'll be a CTP14 where we can also see a semi-realistic view of a city when we conquer it and our troops go marching in. Of course, we'll need a PVIII 9000 with 5 gigs of RAM to run it...but they'll be reasonably priced by then.

	21-11-2000 00:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Geeezzzzzz....... I like your review but hate your premis.... I loved CivI II ToT CTPI and probably CTPII and CIV III when they become availabel. Smac I dont know..... maybe it was the dull red fungus on the dull green earth, key word being dull. People dont have to like something to the exclusion of other things. There is nuf luv to go round. I hope CTPII rocks and hope CivIII rocks more. Just wish I had more time to play, all the good games. Besides don't forget Brian Renolds probably had more to do with the civ's then Sid. Hope his dinasour game wont completly suck.

	21-11-2000 00:19									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yeah, your post really gets it right. I think CTP2 is the current gold standard. But it didn't do anything to really give Sid's Civ 3 a run for the money. Bottom line, you said it -- player needs to feel like an emperor not an accountant.

QUESTION - Can ANYONE tell me how to center the screen on the current unit???

	21-11-2000 01:44									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Doesn't CTPII allow 32 civs in a game? I know CTPI did but i don't have CTP2 yet. Has this been changed or does Userprofile.txt still allow this?

	21-11-2000 12:47									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Raingoon: Hit the "a" key... i has to scour the hotkey list to find it myself

The review is right on the money... good job of listing the positives and negatives of the ctpII game, which i too believe is the current gold standard.

	21-11-2000 21:05									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I So agree with the Visuals. this is what I want.

I want to be able to zoom out to a satilite image and see the whole map at once. and then be able to zoom in close enough to see my buildings in my city being built. to see the bulldozers clearing the land for the new farm I just built. and to see that the little musketeer unit is actually a full regiment. and I can tell that it is at 80% power because there are only 16 people in formation instead of 20.

And I want more control over my army. I want to control where my tanks are. and maybe put some of them in reserve so they can bash thru a whole in the line and then swing around and and attack from the flank or the rear.


*sigh*

someday...

	21-11-2000 23:11									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Chaos, why do you want to see the bulldozers, and why do you want to zoom out the whole map ?
The map is right there, and for bulldozers, what point is that ?

I like the terrain in CTP 2, it looks great, the beaches are excellent, but it's not a big deal for me. The best graphics in a civ game so far was Civ 1, that made it feel like a real map and hence like you were a real leader. Civ 1 graphics were not the best looking but by far the most athmosperic to me.
Smacs 3D map was good, but the graphics where really really cluttery, and the colors badly chosen.